IRC log started Thu Jun 8 00:00:02 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0608 -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water [water@tnt-10-235.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- billh [billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com] has joined #tunes re bill Hello, what's up ? working on slate and diktuon * billh/#tunes has been up about 24 hours and is too wired to go to sleep (with corey, we're chatting in #{}) diktuom ? http://diktuon.arrow.cx 02:10am diktuon is the greek word for web ancient greek oh yeah what's the modern word? diktuo trivially different what a few millenia make, right? english changed much more than that in less time english didnt have a strong literary tradition till recently (relatively) good point diktuo is probably pronounced completely different than diktuon vowel shifts that's right you mentioned that earlier concerning that discovery 02:30am -:- Downix [down@d-ma-boston-153.ici.net] has joined #tunes ok all, anyone awake, got q's hmm * Downix/#tunes is buying a new HD for his old system... need to choose an OS for it hey hey water what stats? K6-2 450, 32 meg RAM, 13 gig HD 3D accel video card (ATi) "old system"? 03:00am (the CPU and mobo blew, which is why I'm renting this wintel box, but since the old parts are no longer in stock but it's under warranty, the company is giving me this new mobo/CPU) thats better than eirene with less ram I'm planning on getting more RAM 03:10am abi: sicp sicp is Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs at http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ "the wizard book" with the cool lambda on the front and the yin-yang for eval-apply :) -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error to Downix[d-ma-boston-153.ici.net]: Connection reset by peer) 03:30am -:- SignOff billh: #TUNES ([BX] Reserve your copy of BitchX-1.0c16 for Windows CE today!) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- ult [ult@user-38lcd4c.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- smoke [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes hoy hoy 06:30am i like to know more about the consequences of using a language with a GC for interactive programs well i can live with the occasional hickup of emacs, but for a painting program it might be less attractive.. there are two downsides to GC the first is that there can be a lot of memory overhead, for storing GC-related information but on modern computers that doesn't matter, this just makes GC rather tricky for embedded systems. A good generational garbage collector isn't that bad. aha. The problem is you still have those hickups, they are just very often and very short if you GC often. with CMUCL the 'very short' was about a second less than that CMUCL GC's every 2 megs unless your swapping, it's very fast hm What you might want to do with your painting program, is assume there is a lot of free RAM then have a timer, whenever the total allocated memory is above 5 megs since last GC If the user hasn't done anything in the past minute He isn't likely to do so for another minute -- GC immediately :) aha! good idea It might not be a bad idea, if your writing the GC, to make it interruptable. 06:40am i suppose that involves some work for cmucl ugh Well, cmucl has its problems It's not the fastest environment, first off. It's real strong point is numeric, namely floating-point computation So you could write a decent raytracer with it, but not much else. hm. Now...what you should do, is donate several thousand dollars to the Leak project. (That's me and eihrul :) LOL. We're working on a HIGHLY optimized Lisp-like language very very interesting. Less theory and more of a practical language :) optimized for what btw? Speed :) Leak is a OS/Language/whatever any concrete plans worked out already? Well, we've been laying out the intermediate language. Nothing I'd say truly concrete, because this does attempt to be modern. But the intermediate system is a RISC-like virtual machine is this a commercial project btw? This will allow Leak code to be both virtualized *or* compiled to machine code Hmm, I don't think so... This is more of a Ult+Eihrul-Getting-Famous project hehe :) One of the more Tunes-related ideas is the meta-browser i see what you need the $$$ for the Leak environment is a world Not just files or a command line, but a complete world with interactive objects very interesting. And the ability to create new objects (write programs) is just a facet of leak is this tunes related ? not deliberately 06:50am then could you please continue explaining on #leak? i'd like to know more :) 07:00am -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2 -- Accept no limitations) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (woosh) -:- jpr [jpr@bonn10.slip.yorku.ca] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff jpr: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- ult [ult@user-38lcd7a.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp66.dial-in.verkkotieto.fi] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn132.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp211.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-95.s95.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- water [water@tnt-10-188.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi watter (sorry for the misspelling re 09:30am -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- ult [ult@user-38lcd6c.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-188.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) water: does slate use garbage collecting? 10:10am yep (with exceptions) the difference is that in certain cases objects are restricted from having references to them copied in which case the object can be recycled as soon as the parent namespace forgets it aha i'm scared that GC will mess up my interactive programs :/ until now i haven't run into problems (using common lisp), but i don't know what to expect gc doesn't have to be that intrusive to interactive programs of course it depends on how much performance you need, i suppose i'd prefer smooth operation for several minutes, but i suppose that's impossible there's one gc strategy that's supposedly designed to work around the empty time-slots near input events do you happen to know music trackers? nope hm. if you can determine every object's scope for a certain subsystem, i suppose it could optimize it so gc weren't needed basically they're very primitive music composers.. i'd like to handle mixing of sound, showing scopes and receiving input all at considerable high frequencies (screen output at 35 or 70 hz) i wonder if cmucl does that dunno... wouldn't streams handle that? streams? water: icuc, http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/did/56518 * hcf/#tunes is away: (afk) hm 10:20am a modern GC should handle that fine ... there might be some small delays but in multitasking OSs you have them anyway oh yeah rub it in.. :) i picked up an amiga 2000 here with zero processing power, but everything runs *so smooth* .. it's much more fun to work with than these pentiums :( * smoke/#tunes is a spoiled brat :-) 10:30am how many projects is eihrul working on? there is a lot of overlap, but still 2 1 i'm kinda planning for after slate :) (using stuff developed from slate work) yeah 10:40am why not just implement your lisp in slate? ;) well, see, at first i planned to make the lisp not so slate-like but every time i keep rethinking how i want it to be btw i figured out a real oddity about slate syntax as we decided on it it keeps getting closer and closer to slate :) heh what about it? anyway, it turns out that ( is totally redundant in the current syntax scheme i'd say that's pretty odd :) not quite how so? er... not quite what? because the semantics of lookup + apply on the very first selector :) why the first one? the reason i found ( redundant was that *every* ( is used exactly once in front of every selector, assuming no sugaring oh :) well, if you put it that way... however, in some cases ) is implicit as well so, ) just means "backtrack" one word/selector/namespace so if you make all (s implicit, then you have to remove some of the implicitness of ) not necessarily as in (object message) if you force all )s to be explicit..... would be written: object message)) then there's exactly one ) per "pop" of the namespace entered s/namespace entered/selector followed/ which makes ) a different kind of thing what "/" ? "/" is gone :) * Kyle_L/#Tunes ignore Kyle he can never follow the "(" ")" "/" "." conversations i also considered that result could be changed to a one-character symbol for ease of typing it's ok the syntax debate has been closed for very good reasons :) e.g. ] instead of result because i can see where it would be called quite a bit (especially for functional-style programs) -:- Downix [down@d-ma-boston-110.ici.net] has joined #tunes * Downix/#tunes grumbles 10:50am eih: whatdya think? damn it, he left yes "yes"? frequent use merits a shorthand :) ok though maybe something smaller like '.' :) this syntax issue has burned me for too long hm * eihrul/#tunes afks: food. i'm looking for something intuitively related i think ok how about ^ for result? why? it works for smalltalk people, but others... who knows yeah and what will [ be used for? ] seems odd i already just wiped out ( and kept ), though :) oh yeah maybe something else would be better going to the entirely lop-sided effect? something like that it's just that ( was completely redundant in the current scheme how about "=" no that'd be confusing i mean you want = to mean other things perhaps you need to use unlambda syntax not result, ya know? smkl: :P or how about intercal? :) * water/#tunes hmmms object please lookup message please lookup please apply please ] please apply please ] :) :P that's cobol ;) 11:00am or we could just express slate expressions as SQL queries :) * water/#tunes ducks the sooner this syntax stuff gets worked out, the sooner the spec gets delivered although this access db crap i'm working on hasn't been helping with the time factor bbiaf -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error to Downix[d-ma-boston-110.ici.net]: Connection reset by peer) 11:10am water: hmm, note that ")" is effectively the "apply" operator... and "(" was effectively the "lookup" operator which was so implicit that it was removed :) 11:20am heh interesting that's a good way to relate the concepts hm it might *also* be a way to reify them but that's very speculative 11:30am -:- ult [ult@user-38lcc5n.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes i suppose the only significant thing to discuss is mutation semantics in terms of what syntax we already have Hey water, do you have any good motherboard diagnostic software? I used to have something like qtpro or somesuch that seemed nifty nope sorry * ult/#Tunes sighs this makes no sense whatsoever... eihrul: and this relates directly to how objects are implemented or rather, how the user perceives objects i have to admit, i'm still not entirely sold on the self-like object model well, the Self object model is symptomatic of all prevelent object models -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) and what i'm thinking is that if we simply provided that as a view orientation of the functional object metaphor, then it would clarify mutation issues otoh it doesn't matter how we implement it i'm just concerned about the semantics -:- jpr [jpr@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes Kyle_L: hi kyle hi jpr hi jp 11:40am Kyle_L: I looked for you earlier but you weren't here :-( -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [11:40am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp66.dial-in.verkkotieto.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smklsmkl: #TUNES (changing servers) water: hmm, ((foo bar) baz) hm ok -:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp66.dial-in.verkkotieto.fi] has joined #tunes in that case it was an unnecessary tangent otoh.... "((foo bar) baz)" vs "foo bar) baz)" -:- jpr [jpr@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has left #tunes [] what's the difference? actually, there is none :) maybe there is, but i definitely don't see it iow it works actually, i think what i was getting that was distinction between (clone view) and ((clone) view) in slate.lisp :) oh though, that can actually be solved trivially still not a problem one is: clone view)), one is clone) view) yep what a wierd language perhaps a different symbol for application would be appropriate :) perhaps... but what? something that doesn't make me think of "balance" am too used to lisp :) heh 11:50am everyone's used to balancing parentheses and such though the new syntax does eerily make the semantics of lookup + apply easier to understand :) doesn't it, though? :) maybe we could go for separators, like: "; . , | \ / _ ~ > < ! " if you use '.' for apply and '^' for result it almost looks like smalltalk :) just throwing out ideas here yes how odd :) this will definitely be nice for multiple syntaxes can you think of a better character then? perhaps the smalltalk route *is* the best for now? -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Through the Looking Glass with Slate! :) yep it would definitely please the squeakers they are right now looking at other syntaxes hm soooo result is now "." and ")" is now "^" and everything else is gone :) i think we just struck the balance between lisp and smalltalk and forth :) well, thought it was other way around? :P what was? water: has the quoting thing been decided? oh yeah quoting '^' is result, '.' is ')' i think so.... what do you think, eih? 12:00pm oops :) well, didn't we decide it was an interface issue? yes but it has to be around in some form or other -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[16dyn132.delft.casema.net]: Connection reset by peer) okay, so the one little snag is that '.' is a meta-level operator but what of '^' and ':'? yep userland :) why do you ask? don't forget, 'parent' and 'meta' are also meta-level operators well, we were never quite clear on whether they are slots or meta-level :) they definitely perform meta-level functions altering message-lookup is no base-level task 12:10pm dude slate is bad-ass :) that's a first never quite heard you say "bad-ass" that's coz i reserve it for things which are truly so :) nothing previously in the logged history of this grand channel has deserved it eih: i just realized that "...." might look odd in code well, so would )))) if you don't believe me... look at any snippet of lisp code :) true, but it might pay off to make sure that programmers can read their own code :) and make sure they've inserted enough "." at the right places n/m screw those lusers! :) 12:20pm heh yeah, dont let them ruin your perfection. seriously, we'll make tools for it and besides the concept is simple, once understood and the visual syntax will make it transparent 12:40pm -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn132.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes bbl to write slate docs... got stuff to take care of now -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) abi: RBook is a REBOL dialect for a WYSIWYM way of writing documentation, can generates HTML, LyX, and ASCII output, at http://members.home.net/krobillard/rbook/ hcf: does it look cool? not to me, but might to u 01:00pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-95.s95.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (move.l irc, %vt(2)) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn132.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[16dyn132.delft.casema.net]: EOF from client) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-118.s118.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250042.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hoy tcn hey 03:10pm tcn * Fare/#Tunes has adsl, but has to configure it, now Fare: tell me when. in a few minutes, as soon as I plug it in, configure it, run it, etc to hell with cable, eh? yeah oops, my dad is sleeping in the server room 03:20pm how many computers you got? that's a trick question, isn't it? do you count my HP28 as a computer? what about my lisp-machine-to-be? (somewhere in the states) your lisp-machine-to-be is not-yet how many computers in the server room, fare? 03:30pm do you count my dad's TI92 ? (oops, it's in my sister's room, sorry) nah, TI's suck ok, then there are two linux machines, and maybe an oooold unplugged linux laptop (no dedicated PCMCIA ethernet card) you can only program TI's in some bastardized form of BASIC right? (could have it on PLIP, but the two machines have their lp plugged into printers already; null modem PPP might do; but then, the machine's a tad too slow for a decent DOOM2) tcn: personally, I don't consider the TI as a computer. Unable to run free software. (although they say they've finally published specs to modify its m68k firmware) on the other hand, I tend to consider the HP28 as a computer, but I'm biased. RPL right? Right. the HP LaserJet 4ML understands PostScript, so might be considered a computer too, although it has quite limited (although quite useful) I/O. heh, you ever seen a PS virus? PS virus? no. Sounds scary. I hope resetting the power on the printer removes it... yeah :) could be worse with ghostscript.. (btw, I had to add an external power switch to the 4ML -- HP deemed it unnecessary to have one) oh, like my 6L tcn: ghostscript is meant to be ok with -dSAFER; I wouldn't bet my life on it, tho run it setuid nobody unix insecurity is a bit hellish. (but it's possible) no worse than win'doze windows security is impossible. so why'd you need a switch on your printer? mine just turns itself on and off.. 03:40pm tcn: sometimes, printing goes wrong, and I want to switch it off having to unplug it is evil and non-practical. oh yeah, with PS :) so, what do you think about this microsoft business? 03:50pm I've written about it on cybernethics@ and in other places the root of the problem is intellectual property punishing microsoft because they were better than others at exploiting this evil is adding injustice upon injustice the real solution is: stop government support of information protectionism -:- _Gadget_ [Inspector@tc1-01.blm.bluemarble.net] has joined #tunes splitting M$ isn't going to either relieve the past victims of M$, or the future victims of IP in general. scheisse, I can't configure the pptp properly ip meaning intellectual property or information protectionism? same difference the official name is the former, but the latter is more accurate so you are against the establishment of information protectionism? will have to try ADSL again tomorrow morning coreyr: definitely does bastiat have anything definitive to say on this? -:- billh [billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp211.lvdi.net]) bastiat was seemingly against patents, but for copyrights although he didn't tackle either subject in depth seems to gonna be a major issue this century the conference you went to, did you discuss it? his chapter of the Economic Harmonies about Competition is IMHO clearly against patent. 04:10pm so does this guy have any pull? :) His speech before the IP crowd is interesting: although he buys the premises of IP (seemingly fooled by the word "property"), the arguments he develops are interesting, and as soon as you remove the premise, the same arguments play strongly against (c) pull? weight, power.. influence Fare: so you are against (c) i infer? yes I am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp94.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes government shouldn't be interfering in private matters by guaranteeing stuff to one side. Fare: interesting the original argument (in the US) for patents was "to promote innovation" hahaha yeah i think thats funny too <_Gadget_> protect the little guy from the big bad corporation so said the Company of Indies but some guys at the Boston Tea Party didn't agree. heh. I suppose it promotes bullshit inventions.. two weaks ago, I made a speech about Free Software vs IP unsurprisingly, a few people disagreed, all three with strong interests in IP Fare: i havent read that book you recommended, but isnt government required for the establishment of any property? one guy was an independent researcher in pharmaceutics he told me how patents were necessary to recover his research costs, and how he couldn't find pre-funding because big companies weren't interested in his original approach -:- morton [morton@AC8FDBFE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes !mp3list 04:20pm <_Gadget_> oi.. actually, it so happened that the very reason why big companies weren't interested was _precisely_ because his approach was original and thus invalidated the utility of their many patents umm.. we like music but it's not an MP3 channel.. coreyr: government doesnt _establish_ any property. It merely _defends_ pre-existing property this net doesn't have enough bandwidth for that anyway. property existed long before government, and will exist long after. hmm morton: come back when I have ADSL... :) tcn: are you the author of FOS? morton: he is yup i'm such a big fan! ohmygawd!!!!! i 'm meeting the author of FOS @$#!@ hey, people know FOS, around here? tcn: you're a celebrity already! Fare: i disagree. coreyr: about what? coreyr: did you read the stuff on http://bastiat.org/en/ i believe property developed with the evolution of social structure the establishment of ownership is an intrinsic human tendency morton: independent from the government property is so fundamental that it exists even without government property that requires government to exist is not property -- it's protectionism like, the property of the right to make trade with the Indies. and i was using the term government broadly for any power that maintains the social structure usually, power doesn't maintain the social structure, but feeds on it. a good parasite doesnt let the host die coreyr: government is seldom a good parasite. heh anyways i see ownship resulting from a intrinsic human tendency, i dont think it is one tho. * _Gadget_/#tunes reaches for his shotgun and hand grenades govt's sort of like an annoying tapeworm -:- _Gadget_ [Inspector@tc1-01.blm.bluemarble.net] has left #tunes [] 04:30pm i think this distinction of government is silly you think maybe govt and property arose from the same origin? government is not just the traditional view, its the corporations, and the interactions of the individual its every relationship in human society coreyr: maybe read Hayek's "Law, Legislation and Liberty" (darn, I really oughta put it on the web -- know any digitizers who don't fear copyrights?) Oh, god that stuff. haHAH billh: yes? morton: how do you know FOS? tcn: what news from FOS? I'm into guns personally so all this stuff doesn't matter. i dont fear copyrights hehe billh: thats like saying im in canabalism, so screw everyone else coreyr Sure, ok. sure, but I fear your hourly wage if I have to pay you to digitize it and it's a huge book, so the digitizer will have to be paid, anyway i will do it FOS? oh, I have a bastardized interpreter running, and a metacompiler, no compiler yet.. Intellectually property is important for the biotech folks, but the current laws aren't really fair about this kind of allocation. bastardized interpreter? tcn: is the I/O functional? yeah (no pun intended) billh: I think IP isn't important to biotech folks it's way better than what I was working with a year ago.. glad I scrapped that.. the benefit of it outweighs the time spent doing it, fare. biotech folks would live better without IP same as programmers, really oh, certainly, many lawyers and related biotech sharks would starve w/o IP. Fare Why's that ? but I don't give a damn about them. find occupations that better serve humanity. Fare: let them eat cake, right? billh: same as for programmers -- consumer-directed cooperative research as opposed to producer-directed redundant uncooperative research I think a more limited IP would be good for the folks inventing it, but certainly not the current laws. Fare Well, the entire OSS community is based on your second claim from what I've seen of GPL circle.s billh: IP is having laboratories spend ten times the money needed for a same research, and directing research in directions different from the consumers' interest 04:40pm and they discourage original research, too, so as to be paid rent on existing patented technologies FreeBSD folks are a little different, but they're aren't enough of them for making a big impact on software development in Unix environments. FYI.. my company makes money supporting free software.. tcn: :) :) :) Fare Yeah, but you need the incentive for doing the basic research in the first place. if what they do is useful and someone (anyone) is convinced enough about it to pay -- that's an incentive hey, the Freebsd guys were smart enough to make patches for existing software instead of trying to reinvent the whell so making everything free is a strike against that, except in situations where research is funded by government adgencies. if what they do is useless and noone thinks it's worth it, then no need to create an artificial incentive tcn They have vastly better design than Linux. yeah free from priviledges != free of charge coherence! tcn But lack key support from the various folks in the GPL, like Hans Reiser. which GPL are you talking? FB's VM is vastly superior to Linux's VM and other commerical OSes too. bh: fbsd may have better design than linux for many things, including memory management. That's unrelated to political problems about IP. tcn Just about the entire GPL community, there's a lot of fragmentationg and infighting. Fare Not true, GPL is a public means of doing IP. BSD license is a unilateral non-aggression pact. GPL is a bilateral non-aggression pact. Folks like me wouldn't be attracted to doing GPL projects if we didn't feel that our stuff would be exploited unfairly by a large company like Apple. so much for unilateral non-aggression. it can only work when you face civilized people. Well, GPL is a pretty aggressive license for a technological subgroup and it serves it well. GPL is bilateral indeed. and having this notion of public IP lays the foundation for things like GNOME, KDE, etc... so how's FBSD "unilateral"? I don't think it's bilateral, I think you switched the descriptions of those groups. BSD is like real free-trade countries that choose to have no trade limitations whatsoever; GPL is more like countries that require mutual free-trade agreement. GPL is much more aggressive than you describe it to be. tcn: BSD says "we developers won't sue you, won't prevent you from doing anything with our code". and that view is specific to the particular advocate. fare: that's fine with me but lets other people make your code proprietary and use it against yourself GPL says "we won't sue you, but then you shouldn't sue us, either" Fare Well, that's an oversimplification of the licensing issue. simplification, sure. Over, no. Fare But you're not focused on the interesting parts of why GPL is in place and what it's created. fare: By publishing something, that becomes "prior art" and nobody can claim IP rights to it. your bickering about BS that doesn't really matter. even Stallman says the FBSD way is fine -:- Saintly_odd [Capjaneway@203.166.234.191] has joined #tunes tcn: sure; they claim IP rights on the modified stuff, and prevent you from freely using/copying/modifying it GPL is a proactive means of protecting ones intellectual property, as perceived by the flood of current dev to the GPL scene. of course the FBSD way is fine! And that's created and entire movement of free software builders. the GPL restrictions would only mean something if you could enforce them GPL _negates_ IP -:- SignOff Saintly_odd: #TUNES (Captain Janeway: 'I dont know how to tell u this *psshhiitttt* but the weddings off !!' - Season 5 ep. 12) -:- lmaxson [lmaxson@adsl-63-194-24-207.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes 04:50pm it specifically says _no one will claim any effective IP about this program_ IP is monopoly on use/copy/modification GPL negates this monopoly for both parties BSD relinquishes this monopoly for the initiator only * Fare/#Tunes likes the GNU FDL, too does it matter if someone takes FreeBSD, makes "improvements" on it and hoards them? so what? tcn: so the world has one more evil hoarder (e.g. Apple) but we're gonna keep using the free version the hoarders are stronger and live longer. why would we trade open source for closed? * Fare/#Tunes likes the bugroff license, that's anti-aggression tcn: uh? w/o government enforcement, there would be no license, anyway, and everything would be equivalently GPL- or BSD- free. since IP aggression would become impossible to begin with billh: haven't I seen your name in some fbsd mailing-list? Fare I use to hang out on hackers. Fare It's a kind "Is the glass half empty or full ?" argument. 'scuse me.. i'll be in #forth -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250042.clarityconnect.net] has left #tunes [] I'm pro-IP using GPL as an active component of enforcement. GPL is another kind of IP to me and alot of other devs in that community. and it's a valid expression of that pro-IP view. 05:00pm to me, everything is clear once you understand that IP is basically government-helped aggression against natural free use, copy and modification of code. shit missed the whole argument (i.e. against BSD-freeness) morton: ftp://ftp.tunes.org/pub/tunes/irc/ i know about logs i missed the oppurtunity to respond -:- SignOff morton: #TUNES (.oOo.) Fare, that's fine, I'm not a FB license advocate nor GPL. I'm just interested in having a cool project to do in the OSS community. like, Tunes? 05:10pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smklsmkl: #TUNES (back tomorrow) -:- lmaxson [lmaxson@adsl-63-194-24-207.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has left #tunes [] -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-113.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-140.s140.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes icac, http://x71.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=630711662&CONTEXT=960504202.509345795&hitnum=15 -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp94.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp60.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes 06:40pm -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250137.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250137.clarityconnect.net] has left #tunes [] -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250137.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey ok.. yeah, I'm STILL working on retro i noticed there was some politics earlier lol argh, wrong chan! yeah, some IP/gpl/etc.. 07:10pm -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- `water [water@tnt-10-148.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-113.tscnet.net]) -:- `water is now known as water water: for slate, whats left to decide? mutability issues wrt the object model -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250137.clarityconnect.net] has left #tunes [] it ties everything together * water/#tunes is currently poking around diktuon and considering how to best document slate 07:50pm -:- lar1 is now known as lar-chow -:- ult [ult@user-38lccdb.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (brb) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- lar-chow is now known as lar1 -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ult [ult@user-38lcd5j.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-148.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-140.s140.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-144.s144.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (bye) -:- smoke [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff billh: #TUNES ([BX] Have you huggled your BitchX today?) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0609 IRC log ended Fri Jun 9 00:00:01 2000