IRC log started Tue May 23 00:00:00 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0523
<water> sorry, i just got tied up in dns crap
<water> basically, it's more consistent if the objects' identities are kept as close to functional as possible, since we're considering objects to be immutable by default
<eihrul> sure, but once objects do become mutable, the model breaks down :)
<water> hm
<water> bleh, i'm too tired to have good ideas on this right now
<water> or even to recall the old ones
<eihrul> well, sleep on it then :)
<water> i will
12:10am
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<coreyr> hey kyle
<Kyle_L> hello
03:10am
<coreyr> water (when you wake up): what do you think about the principia cybernetica pages from a web design angle?
<coreyr> and http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/WEBRESEA.html
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03:20am
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<Fufie> hum
04:30am
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<water> coreyr: two thumbs up, for the most part
<water> coreyr: except pcp needs some extra structure so it can handle an implementation-oriented set of docs
07:50am
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<water> hey kyle
<Kyle_L> hi
08:00am
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<water> heh
08:10am
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<water> hey dalvarez
<water> hm
<water> http://www.tunes.org/Interfaces/
<water> would anyone care to look closely at the contents there, and tell what they think?
<water> particularly the links near the bottom of the page with little articles
* coreyr/#tunes looks
<water> coreyr: two thumbs up, for the most part, concerning PCP
<water> but they aren't oriented to a programming system
<water> or any real software, for that matter
<coreyr> but like that?
<water> sure
<coreyr> with nodes and stuff?
<water> well, i only like the nodes with that extra stuff that makes it organizable
<ult> What's Wrong With Today's UIs and What We Can Do to Help: old musings of Chris
<ult> ^^^ not there
<water> yeah i tried to track that one down
<water> chris harris is a long-gone tunes member
<coreyr> maybe pcp would be nice to share their software?
<water> maybe
<ult> I like the idea behind Tunes vs the WWW, though I think it could use a rewrite 
<water> all the ideas are good, and all the ideas need a rewrite
<water> there's no question about that
10:10am
* ult/#Tunes hasn't gotten to the others yet though.
<ult> hmm, but so far, your right.
<water> well if you can think of specific examples that should be mentioned in the WWW article, mention them
<water> or post them to the mlist as such
<water> coreyr: so would you mail pcp to find out?
<coreyr> ok
<water> thx
<coreyr> shouldnt users be objects inside the world?
<ult> Do you know of any good current meta-browsing systems I could take a look at
<water> coreyr: maybe, it's at least something that should be debated
<water> ult: hm
<coreyr> everything they do could be done with message passing
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<coreyr> and that would allow "browsing" to other worlds
<water> coreyr: bring it up on the list, ask what sort of object the user would be
<water> ult: perhaps RDF stuff?
* coreyr/#tunes is not on the list
* coreyr/#tunes subscribes.
<ult> Hmm.
<water> ult: perhaps a system that processes XML automatically, integrated with programmable web searching
<water> obviously this stuff doesn't exist
<ult> in the "browser"?
<ult> There is of course DHTML.
<water> hm
<water> well you *can* put squeak into a web browser or load it as a plugin, even headless, so that could use the xml and cgi
10:20am
<ult> CGI makes no sense with meta-browsing...you still end up with a HTML document, and there are only "so many" predetermined outputs from a CGI.
<coreyr> message passing (im not clear on to change topic)
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<water> well, dhtml then instead of cgi
<ult> It would be nice if the objects were globally editable (at least some of them)...
<water> brb (getting food)
<water> you could provide a structured squeak swiki
<ult> perfect
<coreyr> how would message passing happen between radically different languages
<ult> coreyr: Just like it would between radically similar languages
<water> sort of a higher-order swiki
<coreyr> would messages be in some kind of defined format?
<ult> coreyr: Well, a message is a message is a message...
<coreyr> i mean how would it be passed? :)
<ult> a foo: b
<ult> (tell a b)
<water> hm
<ult> hmm (tell a 'foo b)
<ult> if both languages had a FFI that allowed them to access eachothers objects semi-natively
<water> well building everything out of cons cells or slate objects would be the ultimate goal
<water> yeah squeak supports FFI
<ult> That's all you really need.
<water> yeah
<ult> For example because Squeak supports a C FFI and CMUCL supports a C FFI, you could write a program in C that would link the two
<ult> And the link would appear to be native in both languages
<water> ok
<water> ult: post this to the list, with all the details
<water> as a concrete proposal for how meta-browsing could be built on existing systemd
<water> s/emd/ems/
* ult/#Tunes ponders
<water> and ignore Fare's responses ;)
10:30am
<water> any thoughts on the other articles?
<ult> The Word Processing article starts to present merit...until Fare replies ;)
<water> i think you're noticing a pattern :)
<ult> Well, Word Processing is really a bad name for what we need.
<water> although i have to admit, the point about tex is pretty much right
<ult> Because it assumes that a "document" is based around text.
<water> right
10:40am
<water> the same mistake as Xanadu
<ult> the application simply needs to be a "document" that has "objects" attached to it
<water> well, for example, Squeak does everything with objects
* ult/#Tunes nods
<water> and the interface for interacting visually with the objects is in separate objects
<ult> Squeak in a sense is what we need
<water> however, a lot of people have noticed that the single object model of Squeak's document systems only works well in certain ways that depend on implementation
<ult> Well, not Squeaks document systems per se
<water> for example, big documents in squeak are bad because of the way the data gets passed around
<water> s/bad/very slow/
<water> i think one of the points which is hinted at but should be explicitly stated for the Tunes article is that you should be able to change object models, but this is a library feature, not a language feature
<water> unless/until we figure out some way to make a meta-coding system for it, a lot of tunes coding guidelines should be formally expressed on the web pages
<water> for example, eXtreme Programming or patterns or refactorings
<water> so are you going to write up this stuff for the list or no?
* ult/#Tunes is working on it
<water> cool
10:50am
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<water> hey kyle
<Kyle_L> hello again
<Kyle_L> anything interesting on the slate front?
* water/#tunes is interacting with corey about slate.lisp
<water> well i'll be updating the site soon enough
<water> by the end of the week, hopefully
<Kyle_L> I can't wait to see a tutorial w. working prototype.
<Kyle_L> What is it built in again?  Platform?
<water> right now, common lisp
<water> acl, i think
<Kyle_L> acl?
<water> abi: acl?
<abi> acl is Allegro Common LISP, free of charge proprietary software at http://www.franz.com
<Kyle_L> I would imagine any lisp interpreter is good enough then?
<Kyle_L> OK
<ult> eihrul uses acl, but it works with cmucl which is what I use.
* coreyr/#tunes uses cmucl
11:10am
* water/#tunes decides to bug eihrul about making the slate.lisp a little more functional
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<ult> ok
<ult> hmm time to make a fool out of myself on the mailing list, eh ;)
<water> hey, i said to *ignore* fare :)
<ult> ok
11:20am
<coreyr> slate.lisp does need more functionality :)
<water> well, write up the changes and send them to eihrul
<water> or post it yourself and i'll link to it
<coreyr> :)
<water> ult can do the same if he wants to
<ult> (clone) "/" is not too useful...
<water> well, cloning the world is supposed to give you a kind of version isolation
<water> hm
<water> ok it has bugs...
<water> clone seems to do the same thing as (clone) /
<water> ok i figured it out
<water> "x" does the same thing as "x /"
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* ult/#Tunes nods
<water> now, what they're both doing exactly...
<ult> er
<ult> i'll bbl
<water> hm what they're both doing is "x /"
<ult> i gotta go vegitate and shower and cook
<water> ok
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<water> actually, they're not really doing "x /"
<water> hm
<coreyr> you cant set the name of an object can you?
<water> not yet
<coreyr> hmm need to practice lisp so his code wont be laughed at
<water> this implementation doesn't get into the lookup and evaluation orders at all
<coreyr> what is the book "on lisp" about?
<water> macros, little languages, oo lisp
<water> pattern-matching, stuff like that
11:30am
<water> i sure as hell like lisp, but reading and coding in it just doesn't happend for me
<hcf> water: abi's nickometer is disabled, caused LOTS of noise
<water> i figured that out
<water> i was just reading the infobot source docs
11:40am
* water/#tunes likes ult's post
<hcf> what is meta-browsing?
<water> hm in the "tunes vs www" page
<hcf> u cant give me a defn?
<water> heh
<water> it's Fare's "concept", not mine
<water> http://tunes.org/Interfaces/tunesvswww.html
<hcf> yuck
<water> heh
<water> yes, Fare is the fellow who came up with most of tunes' ideas :)
<water> and yes i read this crap quite often
<water> try reading the other articles under ./interfaces/
* water/#tunes is surprised that there isn't a Tunes spoof site up yet
<hcf> i dont wanna read articles, i just wanted a defn
<water> hm
<hcf> cuz ult doesnt give one
<water> he certainly didn't
<hcf> he could of linked to today's irc log too
<water> meta-browsing would be the ability to browse meta-information
<water> i'll repond to his post
<water> with links, etc
<hcf> isnt the meta-data thing being done to death right now?
<water> this isn't quite the same
<water> data is not information in its fullest sense
<water> especially since we want to discuss functions and not merely data
12:00pm
<hcf> i gather nigh in 'nigh-unusable' means nearly, right?
<water> yeah
12:10pm
* water/#tunes sends the reply
<hcf> good job w/ the irc log linkage :)
<water> heh
<water> how could i have botched it up?
<hcf> u included the marker / # of lines info
<water> oh
<water> yeah i figured it would be a bit of a pointless reference without that
<water> and it was too long to quote
<hcf> would this sort of system be able to tell me what ult ment by 'nigh'?
<water> hm does a filename "dead.letter" mean anything to you?
<water> hm
<hcf> dead.letter is usually a killed email msg
<water> oh that must have been what happened this morning
<water> hcf: this system would automate away the complexities that ult meant by "nigh-unusable"
12:20pm
<hcf> how?
<water> hm
<water> well most of the how has to do with starting with squeak and lisp and working in the browser
<water> you could start with swiki or perhaps a database and build off of it
<water> but the idea would be to equate the content production with the language constructs' usage
<water> iow lisp as html-generator and having lisp available to the viewer of the site
<water> not the best possible implementation, but it demonstrates the concepts
<water> yes, "demo" is the right word here
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<water> re dirt
<dirt> re re water
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12:30pm
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<water> re re
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<ult> pltltltlt
<water> hey ult
* ult/#Tunes ponders
<water> what's up?
<coreyr> hcf: hoy.
* ult/#Tunes shrugs
<ult> Getting ready to go to a cookout
<water> ok notice i replied to your post
* ult/#Tunes noticed
12:40pm
<water> hm
* water/#tunes really likes the PCP web setup
<water> hopefully they have a nice set-up for automated management and editing
<water> although they *do* have dead links
<coreyr> yeah
<ult> PCP?
<water> well it shouldn't be to hard to write link-checking scripts
<water> abi: pcp
<abi> pcp is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/
<coreyr> ult: you know,... angeldust.. :)
<water> heh
<ult> heh ;)
<ult> yeah...that messes people up badly.
12:50pm
<water> although i disagree with the pcp approach to cybernetics because they're too focused on "hard" reality
<water> oh well
<hcf> water: what happened to the webmind guy(s)?
* water/#tunes looks at dirt
<hcf> oh, heh
<water> dunno, what are you guys up to lately, dirt?
<coreyr> w/ii durt
<coreyr> w/ii dirt
<coreyr> ack
01:00pm
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<dirt> sorry folks
<dirt> was busy
<dirt> er
<dirt> ert
<water> we were just curious how the biz is going
<dirt> it's going
<dirt> probably won't be any revelations in the next month or so from us
<dirt> but eventually...
<dirt> sorry, NDA and all (though i hate that aspect of things) prevents me from sharing specifics
<water> no problem
01:30pm
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<water> hey red5
<redfive> hello
<water> how's bespin and tril?
<redfive> tril's a busy slut
<redfive> I can't ever get ahold of him
<water> hm
<redfive> oh well
<water> well at least i'm getting email responses now
<redfive> I'm curious about slate
<water> how are things for you?
<water> oh? :)
<redfive> henzo and me want to write stuf in it, but it doesn't exist yet :)
<water> btw, i'm considering seriously fiddling with tunes web design, whether on tunes.org or on my own domain
<water> heh
<redfive> yeah, that webdb is pretty weak as of now
<water> well, do you know common lisp?
<redfive> I don't know what's up w/ it
<redfive> I'm learning scheme
<water> ok
01:40pm
<water> you could probably write up a slate system in scheme pretty quickly
<redfive> hmmm... is it goign to be typed?
<water> (say 35k of code roughly)
<water> sort of
<water> :)
<redfive> hmmm..
<water> at the base level, no types
<redfive> how far along are you
<redfive> ?
<water> well i'm still working out the finals of the language definition
<redfive> oh
<water> (sorry i'm in multiple channels)
<redfive> no worries, I'm talking w/ henzo
<water> but that should be done by the end of the week
<redfive> the language? or the compiler?
<water> language
<redfive> k
<water> eihrul's working on the compiler back-end right now
<redfive> nice
<water> the problem for now is making the syntax proper
<water> and making sure the very core semantics are worked out to the nth degree
<redfive> ok, that's over my head
<redfive> I was just wondering how long it would be before I can write in slate :)
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<redfive> speak of the devil
<water> well there's a tiny implementation that eihrul wrote up in lisp, but it's only a toy and doesn't really stay true to the language yet
<HenZo> <nod>
<water> hey henzo
<HenZo> Hey water
<HenZo> How's eihrul's compiler coming? Done?
<water> nope
<HenZo> :(
<water> still writing the optimizing back-end
<water> heh
<HenZo> Ahh
<water> damn it, you guys aren't supposed to be excited by it, yet :)
<HenZo> hehehe
<HenZo> I'm excited about ANY progress whatsoever
<HenZo> Thouroughly excited
<redfive> progress? where?
<HenZo> heh
01:50pm
<water> well are guys good with web-design?
<HenZo> yeah
<water> hm
<HenZo> What about that guy you were talking about the other day?
<redfive> it's a learning process
<HenZo> The co-admin of web design or something
<water> there's a fellow named elric i'm getting (hopefully) to work out a new web doc system for tunes/slate/etc
<HenZo> oh ok
<water> he works at aa.net
<HenZo> aa.net, that's right
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<HenZo> what up lar
<lar1> re HenZo
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<water> hm
<redfive> I must go as well.
<redfive> peace
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02:00pm
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* water/#tunes whistles a tune or two
* lar1/#tunes whistles TUNES.
<water> looks like its my turn to come up with a topic again
<water> (isn't it always)
<water> i may as well bring it up again....
<water> http://www.tunes.org/interfaces/
<water> oops
<water> http://tunes.org/Interfaces/
<water> anyway
<water> i was thinking that most of you haven't looked at the articles linked to at the bottom of the page lately
<water> do you guys have any ideas about them?
03:20pm
<water> is anyone looking?
<lar1> Yeah
<lar1> But I don't count :)
<water> yes you do, although i'm more interested in having at least 4 people working on this
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<``water> who's not lurking here?
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03:30pm
<water> geez. what's the point of being here?
<Fufie> getting philosophical? :)
<water> bah :)
<water> no just wondering who's actually interested in tunes ideas, and who's a shameless leech? :)
<Fufie> I am a shameless lurker at the moment
<lar1> I am intrested, however I don't fell like discussing right now.
<Fufie> lar: that's ok :)
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03:40pm
* dirt/#tunes raises hand
<dirt> shameless leech here
<water> :P
<water> it doesn't matter... you're doing it on company time
<lar1> Eh?
<water> why are you actually using irc instead of checking the logs?
<dirt> i like the interactivity
<water> lar: intelligenesis employee
<dirt> even when i don't participate
<dirt> :-]
<water> hma true leech indeed
<lar1> water:  Ah.
<hcf> the flamewars here r boring when read from logs
<lar1> Indeed!!
* water/#tunes shakes his head
03:50pm
<dirt> i'm outa here anyhow now
<Fufie> flamewars?
<dirt> so enjoy a "leech-free" few hours :-]
<dirt> damn
<water> Fare and i, usually
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* Fufie/#tunes heads for bed
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<water> hey atg
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> I am running DOS on an 800mhz, 256mb Athalon.
04:00pm
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes launches a squadron of rabid gnats to annoy the crap out of coreyr .
<water> atg: up to your stupid dog tricks, again?
04:10pm
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<eihrul> stupid woodchuck tricks, actually
<water> btw i'm setting up arrow.cx
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<water> re terra
<Terralthra> 'ello
<water> the new domain will have all my stuff on it
04:20pm
<lar1> Cool
<water> yes, although i'm definitely going to make it a little more friendly to those looking for info
<lar1> <lar1> Yeah, I am going to do some tunes stuff.  I'd like to propose a redesign, accually.  I've been thinking alot about it.
<water> corey: anything for aliasing or mail-forwarding?
<water> lar: ok
<coreyr> water: no problem.
<water> hm arrow.cx still empty
<water> terralthra: was Fare opinionated enough for you yesterday? :)
<coreyr> water: ytalk.
<water> oops
<Terralthra> ...hi Fare....
<water> terra: he's lurking
<water> or rather, he's got his irc client running on a machine he's not using
<Terralthra> =]. He was very...um...self-assured.
<coreyr> heh
<Terralthra> I don't have enough programming experience to tell him he's wrong or argue with him, and...well...he knew it.
<water> corey: should i just have arrow.cx be an alias for ./~water/ ?
<water> oh duh
<water> geez of course i have to do thaat :)
<coreyr> right now ~water/public_html/ is used as the root for the virtual host www.arrow.cx
<water> ok
<Terralthra> And he operated much as my friend Chesh does...always using the literal sense of things, rather then reading from context.
<water> what kind of aliasing is appropriate, corey?
<water> terra: hm
<water> well, he wrote 90% of the tunes site, and we've been working on getting him to improve it
<coreyr> i can setup users@arrox.cx how ever you'd like
04:30pm
<water> corey: i mean redirecting, proxying, or frames
<water> i assume redirection?
<coreyr> oh you just want me to redirect www.arrow.cx to tunes.org/~water?
<water> not sure
<Terralthra> Well, this is on the verge of becoming my new IRC hangout...very educational just looking at some of the logs...maybe I can contribute something useful too (someday)
<coreyr> heh
<water> corey: i'm asking what's the best way to go
<coreyr> "another lurker"
<water> no kidding
<water> terra: you see all those users on this channel?
<Terralthra> Yes.
<water> terra: 80% of them are doing exactly what you propose
<water> corey: so which shall it be?
<Terralthra> Water: My greatest contribution to an online hacking conversation so far: (I (hate ((Lisp)(Programming))))
<coreyr> water: whatever is most convienent for you, you can host it on my box or i can redirect it somewhere else
<water> hm
<water> i'll have it redirect to you for now
<water> core also offered me space, so who knows?
<Terralthra> I dunno, water. Maybe I'll be just a name in the right pane, maybe I won't be. *shrug*
<water> corey: would the site need mail forwarding to be functional?
<coreyr> water: im not sure im following you.
<water> corey: about which?
<coreyr> well i just mean, if you want water@arrow.cx, etc...
<water> hm
<coreyr> uhm about the "redirect"
<coreyr> sorry im topic hopping.
<water> yes you are :)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<coreyr> "corey: i mean redirecting, proxying, or frames"
<coreyr> i dont understand what you mean
<water> well niccx offers those for aliasing the domain name
<coreyr> oh
<water> hm i'm still not getting arrow.cx to show up
<water> 38.202.255.95?
<coreyr> why not just make me the primary dns
<coreyr> yeah
<coreyr> .95 yep.
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<water> you *are* the primary dns
<coreyr> ok
<coreyr> then everything should be admind from eirene then.
<water> that's why i'm a bit confussed
<coreyr> it doesnt happen immediately
<water> hm
<coreyr> this would be a non-linear system right?
* water/#tunes and corey are ytalking, fyi
* coreyr/#tunes is trying terminology
04:40pm
<water> eh? what's nonlinear got to do with dnsing?
<coreyr> naming?
<water> uh
* coreyr/#tunes has no idea.
<coreyr> ignore.
<water> how does this relate?
<coreyr> heh
<water> yes the web is nonlinear
<coreyr> i mean nonlineaer naming
<water> hm
<water> yes it's a nonlinear namespace
<Kyle_L> :)
<coreyr> ok
<coreyr> heh
<coreyr> me is more clear now
<water> "www.arrow.cx aliases to  eirene.onezerosix.net/~water/ "
<coreyr> i wish i had someone to talk to verbally
<coreyr> water: yes sir.
<water> except that it doesn't
<coreyr> uhm
<coreyr> it does if your using my dns. :)
<water> heh
<coreyr> now the world has to know i am master
<coreyr> that can take a while
<water> server 0 goes to eirene with the discussed number
<water> oh wait
<water> how long from entering this at the NIC should the aliasing actually happen?
<coreyr> depends
<coreyr> within a day
<water> well in that case, there's out answer
<water> s/out/our/
<water> heh
<water> ok you just proved that the nic knows the right info
<coreyr> yeah
<coreyr> that nic is rickety :)
<water> so it's *your* fault! :)
<water> eh?
<coreyr> most nics and registrars tell you when their db was last updated
<water> oh
<water> hey i'm entering mail forwarding to eirene for now
<water> where should default mail get sent? to myself or you?
<water> n/m i'll handle it
<coreyr> you
<coreyr> not @arrow.cx
<water> well sure it can't forward to itself :)
<coreyr> i have seen people make contacts for domains within the domain itself
<water> ok water@arrow.cx works
* water/#tunes tests this
<coreyr> and when they loose connectivity...
<water> heh
04:50pm
<water> oic they've had firewall problems lately
<coreyr> sta
<coreyr> t=Sent
<coreyr> good.
* water/#tunes considers
<water> well, if anyone thinks they should have an arrow.cx mail address, let me know
<water> i can't imagine why, but oh well
<coreyr> heh
<Terralthra> I do I do I do!!! =]
<water> heh
<water> nice try
<water> doh!
<water> mail returned to sender
<water> hum
<water> i don't suppose anyone wants to discuss something tunes-related?
<water> ok afaik it's just a matter of time before arrow.cx shows up
05:00pm
<Terralthra> U have a question...what language(s) are you workinf on TUNES in? Is it a proprietary one you are making, assembly, what?
<water> um slate
<water> and forth or joy as LLL
<Terralthra> ah
<water> and slate *is* somewhat like lisp >:)
<Terralthra> oi
<water> hehe
<Terralthra> I hated that when I was first learning it...it's better now, but when I was starting...ugh
<water> it's not so bad
<water> well, i think i like lisp 1.5 better than common lisp or scheme
* water/#tunes hides
<Terralthra> And I've read the site, and I understand what you mean by orthagonal persistance (I think) but how do you plan on implementing it? (perhaps a further explanation would help)
<water> well orthogonal persistence means that once you create something in the software system, that you always have access to it unless stated otherwise
<water> Fare is probably better to talk to about it than i
<Terralthra> As opposed to filesystems, where you have to access it on demand, yes?
<water> for instance, you can treat RAM as a cache for the persistent store
<water> well with filesystems you have to explicitly convert every time the data-structures
<water> (for example)
<water> if you want to see research on them, look at the napier88 site
<water> abi: napier88
<abi> napier88 is a language for a persistent hyper-programming system from the Univ. of St. Andrews or proprietary and evil or at http://www-ppg.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/Languages/Napier88/
05:10pm
<water> the UI is also interesting (hyper-programming aspect)
<coreyr> slate spec by sunday?
<water> let's hope so :)
<Terralthra> Reading Napier &
<water> terra: btw there's probably a hundred other links i could give you with just as much unique material
<Terralthra> I wouldn't be a bit surprised.
<Terralthra> Looking at Fare's link page made me go *ugh* though.
<water> a lot of abi's stuff is on the language and os review pages
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<Terralthra> Hmm...is that model of persistance close to the one TUNES will use?
<water> fairly close
<water> tunes, however, has a lot of differences based on the ideas of functional programming
<water> mostly the difference (a far-reaching one) is that all computations should be reversible
05:20pm
<Terralthra> wow. That's pretty ambitious, given the number of calculation types there are.
<water> not really
<water> if you use the right programming language, it's not that difficult a concept
<water> of course the implementation isn't trivial
<Terralthra> EVERY calculation?
<water> sure
<water> every functional language can handle reversibility
<Terralthra> I'm only past 1.5 years of calc, but mathematically, there are some calculations that are functionally impossible to reverse accurately.
<water> in fact, purely functional languages *enforce* it
<water> heh
<Terralthra> Of course, in a persistent environment...the answer is already there.
<water> no i don't mean like that
<water> i  mean you never over-write past values unless you *can* call the inverse of a function
<water> yes, pretty much
<Terralthra> So, in the persistant environment, if the computation is reversible precisely, the previous value doesn't have to persist.
<Terralthra> Ahhh....
<Terralthra> *feels newbie-ish*
<water> heh
<water> the previous value is a cached computation until it gets Garbage-Collected, as long as you can call the function's inverse
<Terralthra> I keep forgetting exactly how persistant persistance is...(TIAC, NAPOP)
<water> hcf: you there?
05:30pm
<hcf> y
* water/#tunes tries to recall what it was he was looking for
<water> forget it
<water> it's obviously not that important to me
<Terralthra> =]
05:50pm
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<hcf> abi: gui gallery is at http://www.pla-netx.com/linebackn/guis/
<water> heh
<water> cool, xerox machines
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07:40pm
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* water/#tunes ponders the effects of a 'user' object in a programming system
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<water> hi ddent
<ddent> hi everyone
<ddent> how's it going
<water> most people are away i think
<ddent> I see..
<ddent> what is this chan about ? :)
<ddent> what is tunes..
<water> ah :)
<water> well have you looked at the website?
<ddent> no ;)
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<water> that one :)
<ddent> ok :)\
<water> we can answer questions for you of course
<ddent> cool :)
<ddent> such as the [ this directive failed ]
<ddent> I think your shtml is off :)
<water> oh
<water> yeah we need to give the web coders a good kick in the pants really soon
<hcf> fare put that in on purpose
<ddent> hehe
<hcf> supposedly its a joke
<ddent> I see..
<water> well, that proves something i shouldn't say in front of a newbie :)
<ddent> well, if you want good web design, go to http://vc.bc.ca/webvc
<ddent> :)
<water> is that an offer?
<ddent> perhaps..
<water> hm
<ddent> if you have stuff you want on there..
<water> i'm definitely looking for some help with a site or four
<ddent> I can put it togethere..
<ddent> I use common headers
<ddent> and I can snap a page together in minutes
* ddent/#tunes is currently working on a web-ftp gateway
<ddent> almost done..
09:40pm
<water> well we don't need it all together, we need the framework only
<water> this is beside the point, though
<ddent> right..
<ddent> take a look at
<ddent> vc.bc.ca/~ddent/homework.bizhosting.com
<ddent> super simple to add new pages / update it
<water> not what we have in mind
<water> anyway... what do you think of tunes?
09:50pm
<water> hm so much for helping out a newbie
10:00pm
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<water> hm
<water> brb (rebooting)
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10:20pm
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<water> hi luke
<_Luke> howdy
<water> is there anything we can do for ya?
<_Luke> no, just thought I'd pop in when I saw the channel description on the channels list. I saw a reference to Slate this morning but know nothing about it
<water> ah
<water> where did you see the reference?
<water> the language design is still in development btw
<_Luke> someone on efnet told me about it
<water> we are also working on a compiler, but it's not usabel yet
<water> hm ok
<water> well, i'm the slate author, and i work with tunes people quite a bit
<_Luke> what sort of things do you write with it?
<water> hm
<water> what have you programmed in?
<_Luke> all the usual stuff :)
<water> well, which ones are those?
<water> c,c++, java, ....
<water> anything else?
<_Luke> those, and the usual ones before, and but erlang and scheme these days
<water> ah ok
11:20pm
<water> well i don't know erlang very well, but i can explain slate in terms of scheme
<water> basically, slate's an object-oriented language, but it's built out of lambdas
<water> every object acts like a function because it has a special part of it designed to return an answer implicitly
<water> but it also has other objects inside it to act as input variables and intermediate values
<water> and overall, a slate environment is a recursive "directory system" of these kinds of objects
<water> does that make a bit of sense?
<_Luke> (was afk for a bit, reading)
<water> oh ok
<_Luke> not like anything I know - I'll have to investigate it some time. but alas now I have to rush off and stand in the rain at a football match :-) look forward to taking a look at chatting with you another time
<water> ok
<_Luke> perhaps I can steal some ideas, I'm doing mostly OO scheme at the moment but I don't have any grand unifying sort of object, instead a wish-wash of various ad hoc ones none of which is gaining dominance :)
<water> alright
11:30pm
<water> woohoo!! http://www.arrow.cx is online! :)
11:50pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0524
IRC log ended Wed May 24 00:00:01 2000