IRC log started Fri May 5 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0505 -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes anybody seen dalvarez latley or no what happened to him? 12:30am * coreyX/#tunes is away: I'm busy * coreyX/#tunes is back -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-169.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- FMCardz [Tester@tcnet01-005.houston.texas.net] has joined #tunes anyone feeling helpfull today? greetingz can anyone tell me if they have ever had success hooling up thier fm card to vid4linux their ok thanx for now -:- FMCardz [Tester@tcnet01-005.houston.texas.net] has left #tunes [] 01:00am -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- hello__ [test12@s-tko-pc24.oulu.fi] has joined #tunes hello Morning! 01:30am -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has left #tunes [] -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn139.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes anyone here using Objective-C ? 02:50am nope... 03:40am -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [04:58am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn139.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke_ [smoke@16dyn139.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES ([BX] Mr. Rogers uses BitchX. Won't you be my neighbor?) -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [08:01am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- coreyX [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us346.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-63.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi all 10:40am oh great another tunes newbie on the mlist blah this guy should be looking at squeak instead 10:50am hm time to put together a reply and i definitely have to emphasize some things about tunes to this guy... i doubt he really groks what lisp is about for instance 11:00am -:- SignOff hello__: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hello__[s-tko-pc24.oulu.fi]) how much traffic a day do you get off the list? mot much on the tunes mlist s/mot/not/ most is from squeak usually, and they even have language-issue threads i guess i should be subscribed. yeah the most active tunes gets is about 5 posts per day which is rare 11:20am * water/#tunes ponders over the nature of hierarchies of namespaces in slate i've been considering a more effective use of graphs instead of making everything "tree-like with exceptions" bah i'll worry about that later i need to learn more about graphs i got the book for the discrete course here graphs are just directed networks discrete math? the cover graphs in a chapter they graphs are not incredibly special, but computationally they are very interesting well since ive never been formally addressed to any of this stuff, i thought id read up on it tunes also happens to be interested in category theory, which is based on graph models * water/#tunes nods good idea whats category -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes Gakuk hm there's a good online cat theory tutorial somewhere hi fare Fare: would you know where a good category theory tutorial can be found? * Fare/#tunes is fighting against LaTeX water: no, but if you find one, tell me water: I mean, not online oh water: got time to answer some dumb arrow questions? well there are two books i have which are great kyle: sure 11:30am arrows have structure. I would imagine that a set of arrows are used to describe this structure. uh sure, but that's pretty vague arrows have a head, a tail and an id. This must be describes somewhere right, which is what the "car" and "cdr" graphs do (or "head" and "tail" or whatever) did i have a conversation with you about those already? I don't think so. damn it was someone else well, say arrow a=(x,y) automatically, "head" graph contains an arrow b=(a,x) You did converse with me about a=(x,y), but then described the structure of the components of the arrow, and "tail" graph contains an arrow c=(a,y) oh? I thnk my question is in the other direction. But maybe not. well please elaborate -:- FareWell [fare@r120m118.cybercable.tm.fr] has joined #tunes -:- FareWell [fare@r120m118.cybercable.tm.fr] has left #tunes [] You appear to describe the head and tail of arrows. But where is the description of the structure of an arrow. ok this notion of structure now seems totally vague you mean implementation? Given an arrow I can find the arrow rep. of any of the components of that arrow. But given the same arrow I can not get its "class". wtf are you talking about? "class"? There is a distinction between logical structure and physical implementation. I would like to talk about the logical structure of an arrow. hey wait a sec.... i define the terms here I would imagine that logical structure is close, if not exactly that same as implementation. you want to classify arrows, then? yes. :P what do you think graphs are for? :) did i just answer your question? but I would like the specific graph that classifies arrows. HUH? describe a kind of classification you mean just as sec, while I form thought hm 11:40am corey: i have a paper somewhere introducing category theory to computer scientists If an arrow was an object, then it would have a class. lol I am looking for the equivelent idea of a class. haven't you ever looked at Self? dude an arrow has no features to distinguish it from other arrows.... that's the point The arrow system would need a description of arrows to manipulate them. yes, that's why arrows are available to be referenced by any other arrow in the system I can see that alll arrows belong to the same "class". hold on i figured out the answer for you are you listening? But arrows are different than the higher-level objects that are created by them. yes ok arrows are supposed to represent atoms in a given theory or subject matter or program the only way you distinguish between the atoms is by finding arrow information that says something about the arrows in question ok so graphs act like logical relations that differentiate between the arrows (the nodes) they reference does this make sense? so far. i can elaborate for specific cases or questions you have I will make a series of statements to see if I got it. k This will be a moment.... Arrows can not be observed unless there exists a graph that describes it. yeah like in GC'd systems MMMmmm. Then the need for classifying arrows is irrelevent because they are not observed. well you can overlay a classification system for your objects which have arrow information 11:50am The few that are observed have many more arrows (the descriptive graph) supporting it. Then the class does not actually describe an arrow but the graph with the arrow. hm? For get that. damn it, i can't find that paper I was thinking that a single arrow is never observed, and if it is then there is a graph that is also observed with it. So any class that supposes to describe a single arrow, does not. The class describes the graph that decribes the arrow too. well, observation in Arrow is via ontologies, icuc icuc? * coreyX/#tunes is away: memory leak, ill brb, close vnc, reboot. in case you care Thank you. Some things are clearer now. ok bye aal i really must update that paper, or at least html-ize it bye all -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- dirt [lysergicac@intelligenesis.net] has joined #tunes hey dirt water: cant find it? no sorry hello water water: what paper cant u find? hcf: just a good intro to category theory for comp.scientists i believe cat theory has a homepage actually 12:00pm http://dmoz.org/Science/Math/Category_Theory/ only category theory intro i know is the hillman's yeah i know http://crm.umontreal.ca/pub/Ventes/desc/PM023.html http://www.math.twsu.edu/Faculty/alagic/categories.html http://www.dcs.qmw.ac.uk/publications/reports/qmw681/qmw681.html 12:10pm thanks 12:20pm hm bbiaf -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250131.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 12:30pm -:- water [water@tnt-9-249.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp24.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes lo hey i think i almost have a way to do redundancy elimination :) cool * water/#tunes is still pondering over syntax and related issues 01:20pm -:- Tirkie [a@host62-7-170-193.host.btclick.com] has joined #tunes hi hello tirkie whats goin down not much -:- ult [ult@user-38lc6fl.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes can we answer questions for you or anything? Yes, can we answer any questions? s/can/may/ :P -:- Tirkie [a@host62-7-170-193.host.btclick.com] has left #tunes [] well that was useful Hey water, has there been almost no traffic on the tunes list lately? yeah pretty much check for yourself (on the archives) 01:30pm * ult/#tunes nods Weird. which? other way around, ult traffic is on the tunes list is weird er Last time I archived my email was in august and Since then...it's been between 3-7 emails a day on average :) Sometimes it slows down but not for very long. water: What's the difference between an arrow and a cons cell? sorry brb well, mainly the fact that arrows only reference other arrows and that there are more than an infinite number of arrows in arrow environments and i don't mean arrow-streams only hmm 01:40pm What do you mean by "more than in infinite number of arrows"? well, i mean you can have more arrows in a graph than there are natural numbers (as an example) 01:50pm * water/#tunes just found out that the jvm doesn't allow classes-defs to change at runtime Doesn't that just suck? yeah it just climbed my personal lameness scale quite a bit hm water: well, java is a dynamically static language does that put it above Access? lol hell no as can be evidenced by its emphasis on static typing and its bastard, hermaphroditic father-mother that is C++ access is quite the statically-typed database, though it has kludges around it in some places it's interesting to see what the fine differences are between programming languages lately i've done some amazing things with access.. metaprogrammability, etc.. i've also started playing with postgres though.. it makes me appreciate the ones i like that much more btw is anyone familiar with a programming language where namespaces are used like crazy? 02:00pm you mean, wsp.databases.current.openrecordset..? er kinda or Java? like some languages have block-scoping, but i'm looking at issues in slate where the scoping system works like a file system interface tcn: have you read the tutorial beginnings? water: which lang? slate, silly :) http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html let me refresh my memory eihrul: would you care to christen your implementation once it is ready? "christen"? give it a name oh wait i guess it's supposed to turn into Mobius. doh! 02:10pm tcn: still there? yeah reading about plan9 ok any comments about the tutorial? yeah i know i need to write more :) oh good, BillT replied to the Tunes newbie -:- ult_ [ult@user-38lc6dc.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc6fl.dialup.mindspring.com]) 02:20pm -:- ult [ult@user-38lc632.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult_[user-38lc6dc.dialup.mindspring.com]) having connection problems, ult? Unfortunately. 02:30pm -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us513.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us346.javanet.com]) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf wow! I found a text by Frederic Bastiat against patents!!! hm a college projects to make only newspapers using Squeak s/only/online/ 02:40pm hm i could implement "interfaces" in Slate using namespaces 02:50pm does anyone have stuff to talk about? Fare: going on the website? well, i'll bbl then -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 03:00pm coreyX: which website? corey: the Bastiat website? Sure! Actually, it already is, although I'll promote it to a better place now that I've reread and corrected it corrected? proof-read The digitizer let a few mistakes behind (remarkably few, considering the size of the text -- he must have done quite some work at a first pass) 03:10pm is it in english? in french well that wont do. :) 03:20pm Not all of us speak the One Tongue. translations welcome, of course i guess i could pick my best from it Hey Fare...I recall you saying one time that Vietnam was lost because America screwed up? maybe the FEE has already translated it. It's part of "Economic Harmonies" ult: that was one cause could you go into that ? the vietnamese were the first to screw up and lose Vietnam! Well, of course. didnt they just celebrate the end of the war? However, the US had a malign effect on the war the communists sure celebrate every year their victory The initial error of the americans was to never attack the communists. (most likely because they feared Chinese intervention as in Korea) But Vietnam is nothing like Korea the Korean retreat was due to lack of preparation to the Korean frost. The lesson should have been: "prepare your offensive", not "do not attack". Fare: plz take this to #{} didnt the league of nations ignore vietnam after the first war -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes boring! sorry -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) 03:30pm -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- tcn_ [Tom@cci-209150250036.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) -:- tcn_ is now known as tcn -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-217.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes hohum -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) 06:20pm -:- madcat [jrrt@212.98.16.100] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- madcat [jrrt@212.98.16.100] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us523.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-217.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by pohl.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is sterling.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 15 12:37 EDT(from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- sterling.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(72)] 8% -:- [global users on irc(424)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(517)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(941)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 31 users per server) -:- [total channels created(363)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !sterling.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 94 (86 clients) !sterling.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES [openprojects]!sterling.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by hcf [Fri May 5 15:31:47 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ lar1 ] [ hcf ] [ thomas ] [ coreyX ] [ smkl ] [ Fare ] [ abi ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.778 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Pubah!) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0506 IRC log ended Sat May 6 00:00:02 2000