IRC log started Mon May  1 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0501
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<water_> hcf: how did you come across that article you referenced above in the logs?
01:30am
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<hcf> water: article was found in usenet; ng: comp.os.misc, subj: standardi & modular OS
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02:30am
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<dorint> Hi. i have some problems with my printer. i am able to print, but the color are much too dark . any hel. Distro Corel Linux 1.1, printer: HP 895 CXI
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05:20am
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-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ Downix: http://www.aio.co.uk/downes.html
<hcf> abi: ncstrl is like researchindex, Networked Computer Science Technical Reference Library at http://www.ncstrl.org/
12:00pm
<hcf> abi: NTRS is NASA Technical Report Server at http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/NTRS
12:10pm
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<Fare> hcf: what can you find about supercombinators (or maybe supercompilation?)
<Fare> hi, timl...
<hcf> Fare: more keywords?
<TimL> Hi
<TimL> I'm just browsing the Web site.  Looks interestng
<hcf> Fare: this relates to lambda lifting?
<hcf> abi: beep Fare
<abi> i beeped Fare
<hcf> abi: smack Fare
* abi/#tunes smacks Fare
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Fare> hcf: lambda-lifting? hum. Maybe, somehow.
04:40pm
<TimL> Ouch - supercombinators, lambda lifting ... over my head for now
<Fare> I suppose the supercombinators have no closed-upon variables
<Fare> TimL: sorry. Any question/suggestion/remark?
<TimL> I think I need to brush up on my functional programming :)
<TimL> I like the idea of TUNES
<hcf> Fare: supercombinators gets 24 hits on RI, check 'em out
<TimL> I woudl certainly like to help
<TimL> But I think I have a long way to go
<Fare> hcf: ok
<TimL> RI?
<Fare> abi: RI?
<abi> i guess RI is researchindex at http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/cs?dd=2
<TimL> :)
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<hcf> theres also, ncstrl
<hcf> abi: ncstrl?
<abi> i guess ncstrl is like researchindex, Networked Computer Science Technical Reference Library at http://www.ncstrl.org/
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<TimL> Hmm -- a reference to Haskell in one of the supercombinator articles.
<TimL> I've used that one.
<TimL> Not to say I understand it though :)
<Fare> sure, supercombinators have been used in early haskell compilers; maybe still in GHC
<Fare> TimL: what's your interest in Tunes?
<TimL> Mainly through being fed up with existing programming systems
<TimL> I haven't examined TUNES in great depth yet
<TimL> Just read the large document on "Why another OS"
<Fare> ouch; I should strip it from the draft part
<TimL> I like the draft part too
04:50pm
<Fare> darn
<Fare> one day, I should finish the article
<Fare> TimL: read also the Tunes FAQ
<hcf> Fare: so r u gonna code (non-shell-script) anything anytime soon?
<Fare> TimL: how did you stumble on the Tunes project?
<TimL> OK - FAQ reading is in progress...
<Fare> hcf: usual answer: tomorrow
<Fare> ncstrl returns nothing
<Fare> research index doesn't point to actual contents, does it?
<hcf> yes it does
<TimL> "High-Level Language capable of both logical reasoning
<TimL> (including quotients)"  What are quotients?
<hcf> Fare: in irc/1999.0702 u asked for simular poop, i gave urls:
<hcf> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/wand/semantics/analysis-papers.html http://www.diku.dk/students/turtle/bibliography.html 
<hcf> http://www.brics.aau.dk/RS/97/Abs/BRICS-RS-97-Abs/BRICS-RS-97-Abs.html http://www.cs.uchicago.edu/publications/tech-reports/
<Fare> do you know what happened to fermivista?
<hcf> (i may of given more urls the day or 2 after that)
* Fare/#Tunes hides
<TimL> OK - I think I've got the basic gist of things from the FAQ
05:00pm
<hcf> Fare: r u able to get papers from RI or do u need assistance?
<Fare> TimL: so the FAQ is not completely useless
<Fare> hcf: a little assistance would help (apart from using Google to look for the article whose reference was given by RI)
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<hcf> on RI query page, find: supercombinators, click [search indexed articles] ... on results page, click on 'Details' for each of interest ...
<hcf> on details page, after title and a little stuff, theres a 'home' link followed by a link to the paper
<hcf> YMMV
<Fare> oh, I was clicking on "search citations". That's why
<lar1> Fare:  Have you seen "Cirque Du Soleil"?
<Fare> lar1: no. What's that?
<Fare> On the other hand, I've seen Monty Python's Flying Circus.
<Fare> (well, not all episodes, I fear)
<Fare> ...and now for something completely different...
<lar1> Fare:  A circus with no animals.  Its quite grand!  I thought you might have seen it, seeing as that it came from France.  
05:10pm
<Fare> maybe on tv, some time ago
<lar1> Bah!  The real experence tops that by many orders of magnitude ;)
<hcf> lar1: is this #circus?!
<lar1> hcf:  Well, fare isn't in #{}...
<hcf> lar1: so fucking what
<hcf> invite him
<hcf> /msg him or something
<lar1> Meh, I'll make a note
* Fare/#Tunes is reading /.'s interview of RMS
<Fare> what's the ACLU?
<corey> american civil liberties union
<corey> group of jewish lawyers that fight inconstituality whereever they see it
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't like high-profile media people who put forward their being jewish (or their being whatever race/religion/foo for that matter, although it happens most frequently with jews)
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* Fare/#Tunes doesn't like people put forward other people's race/religion/foo either
05:20pm
<corey> i was joking
* corey/#tunes shrugs.
<Fare> anyway
<Fare> french atheists are the best!
<corey> never met one
<corey> hard to find american atheists
<Fare> s/french/french-vietnamese/
<lar1> corey: HAH!  There are lots of american atheists!
<Fare> corey: www.atheists.org
<corey> not in the small town i grew up in.
<corey> i mean in person
<Fare> corey: scary
<corey> i found one and shes my girlfriend
<lar1> corey:  You are atheist?
<corey> yeah
<lar1> Ah, cool.
<lar1> I'm agnostic of sorts.
<corey> well im a practicing atheist
<corey> i dunno
<corey> its a difficult question
<lar1> Indeed
05:30pm
<Fare> my collection of fortune cookies include interesting ones on the subject, and also point to other (much larger) collections
<corey> fare dcc me your fortune?
<Fare> http://fare.tunes.org/fortunes/
<Fare> there's a scandinavian newspaper with hundreds of atheist quotes
<corey> there are a lot of fundies in america
<corey> well at least in florida
<Fare> fundies?
<corey> fundamental
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05:40pm
<Fare> water!
<water> fare!
<water> hi all
<water> fare:what's new?
<Fare> 
<water> hm
<water> icuc i joined the concatenative language mlist just to see what it's about
<Fare> egroups sucks
<Fare> if there's anything great on the list, tell us on tunes@
<water> right, well i suppose billT will handle that
<lar1> re water
<water> hey lar
05:50pm
<water> i don't suppose people here have things to discuss?
<water> hm i suppose not
<Fare> I would if i werent so sleepy
<water> understandable
06:00pm
<water> hm i wish i could have been here to answer TimL's questions
06:10pm
<water> hum
06:20pm
<water> damn it my email client crashed
06:30pm
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<ult> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagn'nagl fhtagn!
<water> now That's noise
* ult/#Tunes grin
<water> well this is obviously a great night for getting useful things done ;)
* ult/#Tunes nods
<ult> apparently so.
06:40pm
* corey/#tunes yawns.
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<water> re xef
<XeF4> water
<water> got anything to ask/discuss?
<XeF4> not at the moment.. too distracted
<water> k np
<corey> water: did you solidify on any of the things our convo brought up for you?
06:50pm
<water> not just yet, because it brought up a few other issues
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<water> re kyle
<XeF4> water: <OT> where are you (just curious because of the Alaskan S.O.)</OT>
<water> OT?
<XeF4> offtopic
<water> oh
<water> seattle
<Kyle_L> water: do you have anything that may explain the construction of arrows?  I am specifically interested in how the head and tail are modeled with arrows.
<water> they're abstract references... that's all
<Kyle_L> can arrows model abstract references?
<water> yes, that's actually a systematic part of an arrow system
<water> that you can reify those references as arrows
<Kyle_L> good, then the head of an arrows uses a set of arrows to describe it.
<water> so if i have a=(x, y), i can reify (a, x) and (a, y) as the head and tail arrows
<water> i have even introduced the idea of a primitive level graph for encapsulating this idea
<Kyle_L> there is a single arrow that can represent a=(x, y)?
<water> (in the tunes mailing list in december iirc)
<water> not necessarily
<water> i simply describe a as referencing x and y
<water> other arrows could do the same
07:00pm
<Kyle_L> maybe if I have some syntax, it may help me understand.  Is thier a syntatical representation of an arrow; something that can be written?
<water> there's not supposed to be one
<water> :)
<water> use a lisp-style notation if you wish
<Kyle_L> It may be hard to communicate the idea of an arrow if one can not be written down.
<water> a=(x y)
<Kyle_L> OK, maybe I see.  Then there exists b=(a x) an c=(a y) that represent the haed and tail arrows respectivly.
<water> yes, as i mentioned earlier
<Kyle_L> good, and there may exist d=(x y) where a <> d.
<water> right
<corey> whats <>
<ult> Arrow, in other words, is just a newfangled version of flowcharting? ;)
<water> :P
<water> corey: ignore that for now
<Kyle_L> "<>" same as "!="
<corey> oh
<corey> nm
<ult> And Kyle_L: Your not a basic programmer (I hope), use /= or at least !=
* ult/#Tunes cackles
<water> whoops i confused <> for the thing on my home page
<corey> water: me too.
<lar1> AH!  I saw <>!
* lar1/#tunes listens intensivly
<water> we are not discussing <>. period.
<lar1> Not ever?
<water> not today
<Kyle_L> In any arrow system there are at least an infinite number of arrows.
<corey> tense system....
<water> yes at least a strongly unreaachable infinity
<Kyle_L> a=(x y)  b=(a x)  c=(b a)  d=(c b) ...
* water/#tunes nods
<Kyle_L> excellent.
<water> this is the "head" and "tail" graph of any arrow system ... the one's containing all reified references recursively
<corey> <> sounds like yet another attempt to create a universal language
<corey> but im not talking about it
<corey> :P
<water> it isn't
<corey> you guys have a nice evening.
07:10pm
<water> likewise
<water> great, now it's dead again
<corey> :)
<water> alright. fine. i'll answer questions about whatever
<corey> so whats <>
<water> it's any language whose only grammatical construct is a proper formal modality
07:20pm
<water> the idea is that you can use such as a translation scheme between languages, and it is reflective
<water> abi: <>
<abi> <> is Modality or a diamond symbol or your Arrow-like human language idea or additional blurb at http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<water> it's not a universal language, because it's not a language :)
<corey> uhm
<corey> tense system
<water> you asked :)
<corey> phonetic alphabet?
<water> ok that's about the particular bootstrapping mechanism i thought up in high school for <>
<corey> could you go into it/
<corey> ?
<water> since the only grammatical type is a modality, you need a lot of inflection to keep from a verbose sentence
<water> the idea was to eventually have the tense system be a reflectively-constructed set of words that could be dynamically-optimized for particular discourses
<water> i had the tense system laid out into dimensions
<water> (orthogonal ones, even)
<corey> define tense
<water> HUH?
<corey> i know what tense is
<corey> but i what your definition
<water> ok i'm including notions like case and such since i have no nouns or verbs etc
<XeF4> water: inspired by Finnish? :D
<water> btw there is a philosophy that the language is based on
* water/#tunes shrugs
<corey> give an example of application please
<water> hm why should i?
* corey/#tunes shrugs.
<corey> how does <> relate to slate if at all?
<lar1> Good god
<water> <> led to arrow which led to slate
<corey> ok
<water> slate is the implementation strategy for arrow, and arrow is philsophically similar to <>
<corey> sorry im not being a good conversationalist, im multitasking.
<water> as am i
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07:30pm
<lar1> How does one compile the alphabet?
<Kyle_L> thanks water.  Bye all.
<water> heh very carefully :)
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<water> actually my original idea was to shape the alphabeet in the form of the tense system
<lar1> Hmm
<water> the IPA details the range of human vocal possibilities
<lar1> IPA?
<corey> int. phonetic alpha.
<water> my original alphabet adapted that to my tense system
<lar1> Ah
<water> so i had 3 groups of 16 characters each
<water> with the "binary address" of each character determining the phonetic character of that letter
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<water> this binary address also determined the coordinates of the character's use in the tense system
<lar1> Ok
<water> and i tried as much as possible to keep the match between the two very simple and intuitive, and i think it worked for the most part
<water> i got contacted recently by these transhumanists who were looking for a higher-order human language for a project of theirs
<lar1> Really?  What did they say?
<water> they hadn't found anything with as much potential as what i described, especially since most conlangers aren't very educated about higher-order reasoning and programming ideas
<corey> yeah its very interesting
<water> lojban is a piece of crap
<corey> yeah it is
<corey> i dont know why it persists
<XeF4> water: what is wrong with it? (I just had a cursory look a few days ago)
<water> snake oil, mostly
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<water> re
<corey> wasnt their premise the whorf-sapir hypothesis?
<water> i think so, and they took it way too literally
07:40pm
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<water> besides, <> takes into account a lot of more advanced ideas
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<lar1> Do you plan to work on <> after Slate?
<water> no, after arrow :)
<lar1> Oh god
<water> and trust me, there's more after <> :)
<XeF4> water: hm.. I had some vaguely similar ideas for a constructed language after learning some about Finnish
<lar1> So its going to be a long time before the <> paper is out, no?
<water> ah
* water/#tunes shrugs
<water> who knows, maybe after the navy i'll write like crazy
<corey> water: youll have so much time, youll go crazy
<water> and maybe more people will listen after i make tunes work :)
* lar1/#tunes considers 6 months to be a long time ;)
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<XeF4> water: how do you plan to avoid pollution of the erhm.. euh.. phoneme space
<water> well depends on what kind of pollution you mean
<XeF4> ?
<XeF4> water: running out of available phoneme combinations for new cases
<water> well you drop stuff that's not immediately useful and replace it with the new stuff
<XeF4> water: n+1 different cases for a given suffix
<water> there's only so much capacity for a person to form tenses at a given time
07:50pm
<water> eh?
<XeF4> water: how am I understood if I speak to someone with a different set of cases?
<water> oh
<water> there are explicit words for describing one's tense system
<water> and ( a lot like tunes) intercommunication is helped by freely-available published standards
<water> sort of like dictionaries, but reflective and open-source
08:00pm
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<water> hum
08:30pm
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<water> re
09:00pm
<eihrul> hey
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<water> bad night for signar
<water> signal, even
<water> anything on your  mind?
<eihrul> specialization
<eihrul> i dreamt of it last night!
<eihrul> and i knew it was something really good, that i can't quite remember, and it's driving me mad :)
<water> you *dreamt* of it?
<eihrul> yap
<water> heh you're almost as bad as i am :)
09:10pm
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<water> um hi spewbabe
<spewbabe> Hello.
<water> are you into tunes?
<spewbabe> I'm subscribed to the mailing list, but I'm not quite au fait with the details of the project.
<water> ok
<water> well i can answer questions for ya or just talk if you like, it's pretty quiet now
<spewbabe> I find the insistence on functional languages to be a bit difficult to cope with, seeing as I only use C and other normal languages.
<water> although eihrul's looking into some implementation techniques
<corey> "normal"
<spewbabe> That'd be good. It's always nice to talk to someone who knows their stuff.
<water> have you tried, say, smalltalk?
<spewbabe> No. I've used Forth though.
<water> not functional, but definitely something like what tunes wants
<water> ok
<spewbabe> Forth was the strangest language I ever learnt. It normally only takes me a couple of days to pick up a new language (obviously not that great, but working knowledge), but Forth took me a couple of months.
<water> well that's not a language, that's a concept of programming
<spewbabe> Then I worked out that the code is located in the dictionary tree then it was all obvious. Wish the books had said that in the first place.
<water> just about all procedural languages are alike
<spewbabe> Yes, which is why it only takes a couple of days.
<water> oh :)
<spewbabe> { instead of BEGIN, not a lot to learn. :)
<water> yeah
<spewbabe> So what are some of the features of other types of programming? I find myself continually frustrated when programming in C.
<water> hehehe
<corey> spewbabe: youll make them love you with words like that.
<water> you came to the right place ;)
<eihrul> spewbabe: well, even C contains a dictionary
<spewbabe> Incidentally, the "babe" on my nickname doesn't mean I'm female.
<water> of course
* corey/#tunes shrugs.
<spewbabe> Eihrul; yes, which is why I was able to "understand" forth when I worked out the interpiled code ends up in the dictionary. I'm sure I missed a lot of the point of Forth though.
<spewbabe> I do have a treasured copy of Dick Pontaine's "Object Orientated Programming in Forth" - not for how useful it is, but for shock value. :)
<water> cool
<spewbabe> Ah, a question... How does Eiffel compare to Python, or Pike for that matter?
<eihrul> well, its umm, static
<water> they're much the same.... i don't get into them very much
<spewbabe> What do you get into?
<eihrul> otherwise, no spectacular differences
<water> we're a dynamic languages bunch of course, being tunes people
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11:40pm
<water> smalltalk, self, lisp, scheme, haskell, maude, forth, ...
<spewbabe> There was a weird language I had to use for an AI course at Uni. It was bizarre in how you wrote what you wanted, and the compiler would go and work out what answer best fit the statement.
<water> prolog?
* water/#tunes shudders
<spewbabe> That's it.
<spewbabe> I hated it. Is that the kind of language you want to use for tunes?
<water> yeah that's called declarative programming
<water> functional programming is declarative programming of a kind
<spewbabe> I didn't really want to do 123+456 and have the compiler go through 1 + 1, 1 + 2, 1 + 3, 1 + 4 etc to find the right answer
<water> it shouldn't have to
<water> that's a static language
<water> you're confusing issues
<spewbabe> I'm sure I am... I'm a C weenie. :)
<water> yeah the whole point of tunes is to be able to open up the compiler and change it using simple semantics of the language
<water> like lisp can do
<spewbabe> Has tunes got any code at all so far?
<corey> :)
<water> well there are small experiments around
<spewbabe> It keeps saying it doesn't, then I see references to code in the mailing lists.
<water> there are plenty of good programming environments which a c-programmer would not know the difference from tunes
<spewbabe> What are some of them? I use a text editor and cc, so I'm sure I'm pretty primitive, even for a C programmer
<water> squeak for instance, or a common lisp implementation
<spewbabe> That's the problem with revolution; the advantages aren't immediately realised.
<water> but none of them have all the capabilities that tunes would need to exist... that's why there's research
<spewbabe> One of my more heretical notions is that OOP has failed to live up to its promise. Is that a statement that would make you love me? :)
<corey> hmm
<water> bah
<water> try using smalltalk
<corey> spewbabe: c++ blah.
<eihrul> spewbabe: nope, its more of a question that existing OO framework failed to live up to the concept
<spewbabe> I think any programming system that creates objects and layers is too different from reality to work well. Real systems have blurred boundaries - eg, TCP/IP stacks have to directly manipulate memory to avoid handling multiple copies for the sake of
<spewbabe> semantic separation.
<spewbabe> (I don't do C++ or Java)
11:50pm
<water> you should get out more, programming language-wise
<corey> c has ruined the world.
<water> c++ and java are NOT oo
<spewbabe> I do a lot of low level stuff, so that's why I haven't encountered many other languages.
<water> no, you do regular stuff in low-level languages
<spewbabe> I work with embedded VME systems mainly
<spewbabe> In ADA, strangely enough.
<water> practically the only thing that needs to be written in low-level languages are core os code and some bits of drivers
<water> disgusting!
<water> ;)
<eihrul> spewbabe: uh, there's a difference between blurring boundaries and not using objects! a big difference
<eihrul> smalltalk and jalapeno would be a good example here :)
<spewbabe> What are some of the differences?
<eihrul> er rather, squeak
<eihrul> you can represent low-level concepts as objects, basically
<eihrul> and they do that quite well
<water> and they're more easily documented and re-coded that way
<spewbabe> Why not use Forth as a starting point for a new OS, then layer in concepts from Tunes? It would be a good starting point for the project.
* eihrul/#tunes shrugs.
<corey> and do something?
<spewbabe> Even worse, committing to something... 
<water> that's what retro is
<water> well, bug tcn
<water> i happen to think using forth will ruin tunes development
<eihrul> the forth environment would have to be reflected into the tunes layer anyway :)
<water> right
<spewbabe> Forth is customisable enough to look like another language...
<water> yeah but it has serious limitiations
<eihrul> tunes is not about syntax
<water> Lisp also can do this, but also has limitations
<spewbabe> How about a meta-language which you can write your favourite language in?
<water> well maude's a good meta-language
* water/#tunes shrugs
<water> there's not many good one's of those at all
<spewbabe> I saw a post on the mailing list which I liked - either use one language for the whole system, or make the system work with an infinite number of languages
<spewbabe> You could use Intercal. :)
<water> uh right
<water> btw both of those views are identical
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0502
IRC log ended Tue May  2 00:00:01 2000