IRC log started Tue Apr 25 00:00:00 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0425 -:- overfien [overfien@dialupW186.sttl.uswest.net] has joined #tunes yoh 12:10am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn42.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff overfien: #TUNES (using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/981227-pre0.9) -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [03:54am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- corey [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [04:00am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us321.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-17-50.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[msx-osl-17-50.ppp.cybercity.no]) -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-17-50.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes hohum 08:20am muhaha -:- smoke is now known as smoke23 -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[msx-osl-17-50.ppp.cybercity.no]) whats up ppl? 09:10am -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- smoke23 [smoke@16dyn42.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hohum 09:30am -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from forward.openprojects.net [10:01am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com forward.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- smoke23 [smoke@16dyn42.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us321.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke23: #TUNES (boeten) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn42.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-17-50.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes gakuk 11:10am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us321.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us922.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from sterling.openprojects.net [11:19am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com sterling.openprojects.net -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn42.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us922.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has left #Tunes [] -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- nate37 [nate@24.0.219.111] has joined #tunes hohum sup, hcf? 12:40pm nuttin, nate37 12:50pm -:- Homem_Night [aaaa@200.201.30.89] has joined #tunes -:- Homem_Night is now known as _out -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (i got study now... argh) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn42.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- dirt [lysergicac@intelligenesis.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (brb) -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-132-105.s359.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-249.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi all hello, dirt 02:40pm abi beep dirt i beeped dirt hm dirt=lsd@intelligenesis.net ? -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp52.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes re eih! hey * water/#tunes is reading yesterday's logs btw, i'm sorta distracted lately.... not that i've stopped working on slate, but i don't spend much time on the terminal now that i have a new hobby ;) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) 02:50pm eih: so what else is there to know of what you're working on for the compiler besides what you described yesterday? well, lots stuff that i haven't even quite figured out myself yet top-level or il-related? il ah right now i'm trying to formalize a method of doing register allocation on data-flow information alone and converting it from SSA form into side-effectual code in one pass :) is it language related though? (like bmo complications or somesuch) *one* pass? you're a freak! :) well, that's not one optimization mind you er rather, isn't all the optimization i mean no kidding 03:00pm oh hey water right now i can do reasonably efficient register allocation across basic blocks in loops sorry i wasn't paying attention i just need to play with handling other types of branches and know i have to go :-[ dirt: np i just was curious ugh eih: hm be well all -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (Leaving) but i dunno if after making it support other branching constructs, it will be better than the method presented in acd&i though for simple code, it is certainly faster :) well it *is* a dynamic compiler so quick-and-dirty should definitely be the default well, yes... its faster because it eliminates some itnermediate representations needed for webs and graph-coloring ok default? not. Initial setting? yes. whatever i like the previous term the latter infers that it is need be primitive initial default? hey, no term wars lambda-term wars! fare: got anything productive to talk about? water: also, the form resembles SSA very closely and is actually the graph used to implement global value numbering present in acd&i, so it should allow for lots of optimizations quickly ok that's good 03:10pm water: ISMM'00 deadline pushed back 2 weeks acd&i? yeah well i can't attend anyway advanced compiler design and implementation although VL2000 will be in seattle this year * Fare/#Tunes goes take a shower why do i even try with him? -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us1004.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us922.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf welp, going to go eat and work on register allocation across nodes with multiple successors... heh ok most people usually don't say those two clauses in the same sentence :) VL2000? 03:20pm yes, program visualization, hci, vpl's http://www.swi.psy.uva.nl/projects/il/blues/phdblues-ea.mp3 what's that? heh must be cs research humor not just cs oh ok academia in general * Fare/#Tunes really goes take a shower, now abi: VL2000 is IEEE Symposium on Visual Languages at http://www.cs.orst.edu/~burnett/vl2000/index.html 03:30pm * water/#tunes reads the slide-set that fare mentioned on the mlist hm i really like this -:- ult [ult@user-37kbaki.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #TUnes * water/#tunes just noticed a little oddity 03:50pm hm maybe a complete stock market crash would be *really* beneficial Why? =\ om So once again the rich can get really rich and the poor can get screwed for another 10 years? heh like they already are? beneficial, like, to the survivors? Fare: That about sums it up. no, to the losers water: Unfortunately, the only ones that win in a depression are those who go into it with the money to feed their families. forget it, you guys have all the perspective of accountants water: I know what you mean: experience is a teacher and there's more than one way to start a revolution.... corporatism (via IPO's or otherwise) is not but only for people with 1) a sense of responsibility 2) memory 3) sufficient culture and intelligence corporatism is evil. abi: corporatism? so are ipo's no idea, fare so she won't pick definitions from the channel anymore? nope abi: corporatism is evil abi: forget corporatism hcf: I forgot corporatism Fare: dont just say its evil, define it and explain why its evil abi: abireq? addressing me is now REQUIRED. i will only listen/learn/respond when addressed publicly (abi: ...) or privately (/msg abi ...) abi: corporatism is the evil tendancy to give companies more rights than individually have the incorporated people i really have to be careful about what i say here abi: corporatism is also see http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/28/usa.html okay, Fare. 04:00pm abi: jp-petit is astrophysicist and comics author Jean-Pierre Petit at jp-petit.com hm that set of slides provides a nice outline of why tunes is the underdog of research 04:10pm -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250074.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey tcn hey yeah fare: arrow, as well ;) :( and jp-petit's MHD yeah mhd is drastically under-funded aside: oh this is not good um i'll bbl. have to help a friend out -:- water [water@tnt-9-249.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] jp-petit's report on the political story of MHD is really scary * ult/#TUnes sighs ult: ? tcn: retro3 ? Fare: Just some HTML code being stupid have you seen non-stupid HTML code??? i'm taking a rest Nah. 04:20pm -:- water [water@tnt-9-249.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes boy what a week this is how so? hm not on the channel -:- mode/#tunes [+o Fare] by ChanServ * Fare/#Tunes /invite kc5tja 04:30pm -:- kc5tja [kc5tja@garnet.armored.net] has joined #tunes Howdy hey * Fare/#Tunes is back kc5tja: seen Oberon's machine? kc: seen Ian Piumarta's stuff? -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[216-164-132-105.s359.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) oberon hw or ast's? ast's??? No -- I've never been able to find anything of real substance relating to Oberon's VM> kc5: there's the source code, but it's in Oberon :) fare: juice, aka abstract syntax trees .... slim binaries * Fare/#Tunes for a moment thought of Andrew S. Tanenbaum, and was baffled. sure, I meant Juice. And I have a huge amount of difficulty following someone else's source code without first knowing what's going on on an abstract level. Ian's Squeak machine does dyn code generation Right. there's also Pardo's page on RTCG; dunno if it's still MIA, or back on the net 04:40pm Languages.html#rtcg OK -- thanks for the reference. if you find more, contribute! I'm not the type of person who goes out finding things liek this. That's Billy Tanksley's job. ;) Billy keeps me locked up in my room at night hacking on code. :) I like Billy, but he also has bizarre biases. like Joy? :) Joy is a formal study of the properties of reverse polish notation languages; nothing more. there are other formulations of it 'forumations' is an ambiguous word for me in this context. What do you mean by formulations? formulation = how you define something... what subject matter/field's vocabulary you use to characterize a conceptual system ahh i was referring to the field of combinators within the bigger field of substructural logics and the reflection there (long story) Heh -- don't go into it. Combinators just make my eyes gloss over... :) * kc5tja/#tunes is having a hard enough time trying to get through an introductory text on matrix theory. heh don't worry about it 04:50pm s/matrix theory/linear algebra/ you americans need learn to see things in their intrinsic universal framework instead of tying them to particular concrete representations Yes. But I never got that far in college (I am but a lowly college dropout due to financial and professional requirements), who tries to educate himself in his spare time. :) * water/#tunes is not one of the "you americans" there * kc5tja/#tunes is American water: haven't real americans thrown you in an asylum yet? Fare: Nothing short of another world war, where America gets its ass kicked, will make that happen, however. let's invade the US... yeah, we need to pick up the economy :) Nonetheless, I fail to see why there is a distinction between "linear algebra" and "matrix theory." get people outta wal-mart and into real jobs at the bomb factories :) hm well i have friends to take care of, and this noise doesn't help that kc: there can be linear operators w/o matrices -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) I liked the article of one of Scientific American's recent publications. It had a byline of, "Germany is preparing their students for useful jobs. America is preparing their students for Wendy's." kc: just like assembly is not the right language to express all programming concepts. kc5tja: that just makes a college education more valuable! what's Wendy's? it is a fast food chain 05:00pm and France is preparing its students for social welfare. still? well, wendy's, social welfare, same difference... tcn: ok, France isn't even preparing them; it just pushes them there. you mean, here's f5000 a week, have fun "as long as you're not vietnamese, haha" 05:10pm hey, you laugh, but my mom lost her job because she was vietnamese, and not french. yeah, I remember did she sue them? not only didn't she, but she buys the protectionist arguments behind the decision! she would have lost any prosecution, anyway even nowadays, equal treatment is only legally guaranteed for EU citizens. (which doesn't remotely mean it is actually granted) 05:20pm protectionist arguments? can you elaborate? oh boy. I guess http://bastiat.org/ should have all about protectionist fallacies. (although a lot of it in french) tcn: the protectionist fallacy is that "national work" should be protected against "foreign invasion" Fare: pat buchanan is he a protectionist, or a free-marketeer? does it matter politics is just word games I know one buchanan is a well-known free-marketeer, and another is a horrible republican protectionist. -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbaki.dialup.mindspring.com]) the horrible republican^H^H^Hreform protectionist american political thought is so narrow everyone might as well be in one party and you know what thats called... :) the classical liberal Nobel Prize winner is James Buchanan. i dont know if i can side with the classical liberalists i cant get over the capitalist oppression thing (classical) liberalism is NOT capitalism "one-party system" ?? hmm Fare: i thought it was free markets + representative democracy * Fare/#Tunes has a page (in french, with lots of pointers) on (classical) liberalism im not very educated 05:30pm corey: cl is all about civil liberties. it does demand free markets; it does demand representative democracy; but that's not the full story; that's only the corollaries. individualism thru free markets i thought ok cl is a theory of Law, based on individual liberties. cant individualism be more expressed thru a socialist economy? sigh. hard to solve all problems under one banner yeah i saw your page but i dont speak french in florida they tend towards spanish. -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:36pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] Ditto here in California -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Fare] by devlin.openprojects.net to me free markets seem to crush the individual corey: certainly not. Individual freedom is also individual freedom to undertake any entreprise one considers useful, and to voluntarily exchange services with other people Socialist economy consists precisely in enforcing the government's choice upon indidivuals, as regards their economic activities. corey: not free markets, but corporatism. abi: corporatism? rumour has it corporatism is the evil tendancy to give companies more rights or less duties than individually have the incorporated people or see http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/28/usa.html ok corporatism is an attempt to individual liberties. 05:40pm i understand corporatism im american heh :( it makes me sick hmm socialism makes corporatism even worst, since you can't even choose among corporations or anything With socialism, there's a One, Almighty, corporation, Government, as run by the Party. well, we have two parties.. close enough? but isnt corporatism an inevitable result of free markets tcn: much too close, albeit a definite progress. corey: no what about participatory democracy that implements a non free market systen? corey: corporatism is a matter of Law. in a free market, people tend to form associations, corporations, etc. but what about inheritance? But as long as being part of a corporation (i.e. shareholder, etc) makes them legally responsible for deeds of the corporation, they won't grow into overlarge corporations yeah "make money the old fashioned way, inherit it!" for instance, w/o corporatism, the shareholders of Union Carbide would all have been sentenced to jail or death i can see concentration of wealth passed down by inheritance that would drastically limit the size of corporations to things that have human proportions. You would only delegate your life to people you trust. corey: inheritance is ok. i dunno corey: if I earnt some money, I'm free to give it to anyone, including my sons. as long as inheritance doesn't get outta hand, where you have a few people hoarding all the wealth and not using it why should I give it to total strangers, and not people I trust? tcn: which i cant see but happening inheritance should be taxed no more no less than any other source of revenue. wait a minture what happens, several generations down the line when very few people have the wealth and the majority doesnt the problem is not with inheritance; it is with misearnt wealth. clarify -:- water [water@tnt-9-249.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes When a rich man transmits money to his son, that's ok. When his wealth is due to systematic racket, theft, murder, etc, then that's the problem. but the poor people become undereducated and easily controlled I don't see any problem with Bill Gates giving money to his daughter. I see problem with his having earnt money by racketeering computer users. i mean there are exceptions I don't see problem with mexican terratenientes transmitting wealth to their sons. I see a problem with their wealth being acquired by mass-killing and enslaving indians. 05:50pm this system would impose the choices of your father upon you. sounds like a system of lords correct me if im wrong confiscate all children at birth from their families :P Some choices of your father are imposed upon you whatever you do. eihrul: Sparta did that. Ouch. ok Fare: but wouldnt you aim for the least imposition ? hm Fare: well, barring physical defects and such, its a simple end to equality of opportunity :) eihrul: the nazis and bolcheviks tried, but didn't manage; instead, they maintained terror within families by encouraging children to denounce parents. -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes corey: least imposition, sure. i thought we were here to talk about tunes? so did I. water: this relates to tunes corey: thx for the education Tunes is a political project, too or rather, it has political roots. oh yeah another difference between tunes and arrow well if you want to discuss something from subprojects pages, i'm all ears Fare: doesnt free markets concentrate power in a few? the ones most able to make the best business choices? 06:00pm -:- kc5tja [kc5tja@garnet.armored.net] has left #tunes [] corey: yes and no. It does give some people more power than others, maybe much more. But it never gives them illimited power, or anything it's a power of fact, not a power of right. hmm i see the difference and it's subject to the persons continually proving their market proficiency. consumers vote with their dollars; that's much more fine-grained voting than any ballot will ever provide. 06:10pm condemned to choose. ok what about invalids they better have subscribed an insurance beforehand maybe subscribing an insurance should be compulsory i think i see a flaw. being compulsory at least, insurance sufficient to not be a burden to society. limits individual freedom to choose i.e. the others do not owe you and you must ensure that they won't have to provide you with what they do not owe you. that would be infringing their liberty to do whatever they want with whatever they don't owe you or anyone else. instead of compulsory insurance wouldn't government insurance be better? By subscribing an insurance, you have someone owe you enough to take care of you. tcn: haha Fare: have you ever lived somewhere with non government insurance? i have no insurance. last time i went to the doctor was 1994 oregon state health program tcn: ever seen government insurance in action? tcn: or government anything in action? in NY we have compulsory car insurance, government unemployment insurance... guess who screws us over most? shit. Why isn't the relevant bastiat pamphlet translated into english? *sigh* i'm finally getting health insurance again, at least tcn: in as much as you have government privileges in the form of corporatism that protects big insurance companies, the harm still comes from government, to me someone told me about the UK govt health insurance.. said it's like a really bad HMO social welfare in France is hundred of billions of dollars wasted every year. fare: what do you guys waste on defense?? same order of magnitude, I fear. * Fare/#Tunes loathes the military, too heh.. it's amazing they ever manage to kill anybody with all the ineptitude in there.. military seem to be enforcement of corportisms agenda 06:20pm they do, but they won't tell. oh, heh.. Fare: what is the tax rate in france? better q: what do you get to *keep*? even the military is run better than a typical corporation the military is a way to waste money in harmful mass-killing weapons, instead of useful infrastructure to relieve from poverty tcn: seeing the french military, I wouldn't bet on it. although seeing the french corporations, after all... corey: around 40-60% of salaries goes to government, plus 20% of VAT. plus another 25% of salaries. how much of education do they pay? education is mostly included in taxes. health? mostly included in taxes. retirement, too 20% VAT?? 20% sales tax?? but the quality of it all, is bad and getting worse every year. poverty? *sigh* poverty is rising and rising. Over 10% *official* unemployment, plus lots and lots of precarious jobs. -:- newbie-br [user2423@adsl-78-132-204.btr.bellsouth.net] has joined #tunes hello? Fare: precarious? hi newbie :) newbie: got questions? yes, around 100% of what is paid as salaries is paid to governement by employers. hi all..... i couldn't hear anyone breathing..... i ALWAYS have questions.... I know nothing...... around 25% of what is paid to you is paid as tax on revenue (medium salaries) around 20% of what you buy is sales tax. what's the subject here? tunes newbie: about tunes or irc in general? as in MP3? no abi tunes well, tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated or AOTA heh -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes - Free, Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Tutorial: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html abi: AOTA? somebody said AOTA was All Of The Above see... I TOLD you I know nothing... Fare: could the system work, or is it just mismanaged? it can't work, and it isn't managed. talk amongst yourselves...... I'll just lurk. noone will dare take the responsibility to manage anything. newbie: ignore the political stuff.... we're supposed to be working on software :) -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes - Free, Reflective --->Computing<--- System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Tutorial: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html you're developers? lobbies, particularly civil "servants" lobbies, as well as salaried people of private transport infrastructure, are very strong. newbie-br: have you browsed the tunes website? newbie: yes, of an odd sort i'm on vacation from programming never even heard of it tcn: we understand, but still tcn: I've been for decades. tcn: publish the current state of retro3, then, so other people can work meanwhile The las time I wrote anything was in dBase IV on a DOS system...... 8 yrs ago Fare: im not sure free markets would do anything, itd patch a hole with hands that were covering another. well maybe 6 yrs ago 06:30pm keep talking..... I'll just try to scoop up any pearls of wisdom that y'all drop corey: free markets don't do. They let people adjust according to their desires. heh corey: the hole would exist with state-management, too. Only no one would have the right to look at it. newbie: check out the site docs, please. there's a good sitemap that links to all the papers of interest, particularly the faq and glossary my dad taught me that the best way to learn is to listen hehe.. a company in my town just bought the rights to dBase and is revamping it.. newbie: not much to listen to right now -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) "I wish I listened to what my mom said when I was young. -- What did she say? -- I dunno, I didn't listen" preaching to the choir again Fare: what about a socialist government with direct participatory democracy? corey: if only F.A.Hayek's "Law, Legislation and Liberty" was available online, I'd point everyone to it. But the publisher will hoard copyrights. Damn Hayek died before I could beg him to freely publish his works. i read the first few chapters on road to feudalism but i had to leave the library corey: classical liberalism is a cybernetical theory * hcf/#tunes sighs it's all about: who takes decision? from what information? what feedback is there? if you hve a central decision, with its lossy centralisation of information, and no actual alternatives to compare your feedback with, then your system is basically without any usable information from which to take any sensible decision. ok... i just scanned the TUNES faq. Integrated computing systems w/ blurred lines between OS, software & hardware? you guys are WAY over my head! newbie: yes, like Xerox Smalltalk in the 70's In such conditions, you may have everyone take the decision instead of a dictator, it will only make the decision slower, not better. newbie: it's not so bad to explain Fare: that argument makes no sense newbies: not _blurred_ lines. But _dynamic_ lines. nbbr: you can draw the lines; they aren't drawn for you by someone else. I need to go LEARN something before I can even TALK to you folks. bye they aren't cast in iron. newbie-br: know what you mean heh newbie: check out review newbie: the language part of the review subproject -:- newbie-br [user2423@adsl-78-132-204.btr.bellsouth.net] has left #tunes [] 06:40pm corey: take the same 10 billions of transistors. Will you get more horsepower with one processor, or with 10 of them? i understand the differnece between serial and parallel hmm can find that hayek title cant well, as far as goes the processing of information necessary for economical choice, centralism is serial processing, and free-market is parallel processing and the topmost CPU is one (1) brain. even with the mostest genius on earth as a planifier, centralist economy won't go far "Law, Legislation and Liberty" a new statement of the liberal principles of justice and political economy yup darn, I forgot my copy at my boss' ill have to pull it from fau in boca raton. fau? boca raton? boca raton, florida university interloan program oh, ok. rules and order mirage of social justice political order of a free people I'd like the infrastructure of Tunes to be decentralized in precisely that way kernel-based systems impose centralized scheduling policies; centralized security policies; etc. how would you not have centralized scheduling? Tunes should allow component makers to negociate their policies. corey: negociated scheduling. but its still centralized in owning that resource and picking who gets it well, see ya not forcibly. You have to define property rights on resources. * hcf/#tunes sighs -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) You have to have system-guaranteed, but negotiatable transfer of such rights. that is, you need system mechanisms to manage resources. But the policies can be negociated between components. 06:50pm negociated according to what rules? i think i need an example to grasp it corey: according to their own rules; the transaction happens only if everyone agrees; if it happens, it is guaranteed by the system that no one can breach the defined contract. one way to enforce that is by having type-systems. you can establish connection between components only if the types match but if the types match, then the system guarantees that the connection will be established and will fulfill the type-guaranteed invariants. of course, components are free to use the typesystems they want if the typesystems do not match, no connection, tho so it's about having an infrastructure for component-makers to define arbitrary system-enforceable contracts -- it's about effectively creating a free market for components. -:- ult [ult@user-37kbalc.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes 07:00pm -:- lotik [lotik@cust170.tnt1.dial.cal1.uunet.ca] has joined #tunes so, about programming language ide's.... ? heh we need an editor that adds comments easily (like hit alt-Q and get a query for comments) and that adds the variable definition (int x=0;) automatically when you use the variable (for (x;x that's my idea, and it's one of my next projects i guess rmm, emacs, as i said okey dokey, maybe its time to learn emacs -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1041.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [07:15pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- ult [ult@user-37kbalc.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1041.javanet.com] has joined #tunes channels need lots of people.. i'm so unused to channels with so little people :) what good would that do? the larger the crowd, the less focussed discussions are go into #debian if you don't believe me heh even with less people, i doubt #debian would be more focused ;-P 07:20pm water: is slate going to be highly optimized? or just really easy to code in? yes, ask eih about that hmm well i asked you cause of the url all the talk about 'objects' or 'meta' drives me nuts! sorry, i'm kinda busy now (girl :) maybe i'll like it lotik != girl lotik == male || lotik == monster || lotik == freak oh corey explained 07:30pm water, why are you getting laid at the same time you look at your monitor so what's up corey not quite to that point yet ;) actually, toodles all -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) i like to think of the tao as a sexual innuendo -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes >>> nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] requested unknown ctcp AWAY gone to play ball..... don't ask from #tunes >>> nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] requested unknown ctcp AWAY from #tunes i like to think that i will code in asm.. and not only will i code in asm, i will code a editor... and with this editor, i will harness the powers of macros! yes.. this is the key to success, for with macros, i will never have to bother with another language ever agian, if i want to type cout << " bleh" i will make it a macro.. and when i type such in my editor, the asm code will appear, and replace the puny code that i typed, and thus will i to the washroom! bwahahahahaa! heed my diatriabe! * lotik/#tunes is being maniacal.. do not worry.. do not take him seriously well, you're reinventing the wheel because that's what lisp is for and that's not what c is for? 07:40pm i wasn't talking about a HLL.. people may confuse it for that.. but noooo it is far more insidious! it is macros! bwhahaahaha uh lisp is a language for macros among other things uh i'm confused, allow me to define macros macros is when you type something, and what you type is converted to a million other instructions not necessarily a million, but that's the picture that is basically what all HLL do but isn't that what macro assemblers are for? i'm talking of a more where you stay in asm and all well macro assemblers don't really do that lotik: sigh... not to the way i think of it no, substitution is lame there's way more powerful forms of macro expansion and lisp is a good example damn, then i should learn lisp yes fine, and with lisp will i rule over all c coders? when did this turn political? ;) lisp is a language for macros or is a macro language for asm? well, surely you will be more productive and free... lisp is a language... heheh for macros, for real programming, for interaction, etc... well, i think i find more beauty in tight tight code, with ALL shortcuts taken, all optimizations made! control over the computer, not a byte wasted! that's why a macro language for asm is needed with the macros being fully understood and already optimized so that i don't waste a byte ... weeee although i like other languages and i'm sure i'll like lisp uh optimizing macros won't optimize your code that is a sad misconception the greatest opportunities for optimization are global and not local that's why i added 'fully understood' uh... and secondly and i wouldn't depend on macros and a compiler can usually optimize better than a human that's cause it was coded by a sub-human.. and also, there's other issues: a) productivity sub-human == real programmer :) b) it is easier to express concepts in higher level languages... you will be prone to using less efficient concepts in more cumbersome languages which also ties in with (a) macros and assembly are not the way to go... definitely, you are a veritable rational entity, and everything you say is valid.. unless you plan to spend 2 days on every single miniscule function you write... doing in hours what the compiler does in milliseconds :) 07:50pm so i'll make a compiler i trust ;-) i'm not gonna be rational until i fully understand the issues and hopefully not even then making a good compiler is not something you do in a month... i know it would be boring and tedious to code yet another compiler and probably wouldn't eihrul: well, a month completely free with no interruptions, obligations, a iv tube and catether.. i would hope i'd make a damned good compiler :) uh, not with what you know now that's true, i would memorize all the hex codes first :) -:- the [user2381@ip25.montreal15.dialup.canada.psi.net] has joined #tunes lotik: are you hyped up on something? no.. i made a decision when i was 12 years old to keep my inner-child alive.. basically, being child-like all the time cause life really sucks when you are a pessimist generally almost all adults are pessimists lotik: right. 08:00pm the problem is far more horrific in the computer scientist/ engineer/ logician/ rationalist population area lotik: i have rats, a brown one and a grey one. corey: i'm abstract corey: i can't think straight -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from forward.openprojects.net [08:04pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com forward.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- the [user2381@ip25.montreal15.dialup.canada.psi.net] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Fare] by irc.linux.com -:- SignOff the: #TUNES (Leaving) 08:10pm -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from varley.openprojects.net [08:11pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com varley.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Fare] by irc.linux.com fare == nate37?? no why? why the simultaneity of your quits and connects or mayhaps i'm lagged -:- SignOff lotik: #TUNES (hyped!) 08:20pm -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-37kbalc.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh6-port147.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp52.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp97.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has left #tunes [] -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh6-port147.snet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us702.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from forward.openprojects.net [11:49pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com forward.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Fare] by devlin.openprojects.net [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0426 IRC log ended Wed Apr 26 00:00:01 2000