IRC log started Mon Apr 3 00:00:02 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0403 -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp166.lvdi.net]) -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[ppp-207-151-70-170.dialup.pcmagic.net]) -:- nate37 [nate@ppp-206-117-3-117.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[ppp-206-117-3-117.dialup.pcmagic.net]) -:- nate37 [nate@ppp-206-117-3-147.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lackey.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- PING Register first.(from norton.openprojects.net) -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is norton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 13 24:47 EDT(from norton.openprojects.net) -:- norton.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(6)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(400)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(487)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(20)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(887)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 29 users per server) -:- [total channels created(334)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !norton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 10 (9 clients) !norton.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Your default nick is already in use -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#tunes:6)] [ TUNES ] [ nate37 ] [ smoke ] [ abi ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 12.954 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf24.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (brb) -:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes what is a good book or online resource to learn CLOS? 07:10am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1021.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn1.delft.casema.net]) smkl: u here? abi: beep smkl i beeped smkl 07:30am -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn119.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes smoke: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Lisp/CLOS/ 07:50am -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [08:02am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn119.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [08:03am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn119.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [08:04am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn119.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [09:04am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn119.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes * smkl/#tunes is here now smkl: r u interested in escher? hmm, a bit http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Research/LanguagesArchitecture/ http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Tools/Reports/Authors/jwl.html http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Tools/Reports/Authors/eder.html http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~jwl/escher.html http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Research/graveyard/escher.html http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~jwl/adept/node3.html http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Research/MachineLearning/hoidp.html ftp://ftp.cs.bris.ac.uk/pub/goedel/jwl_papers/ could u plz sort these out and put the best one(s) in abi? and update tunes-rev-pl-escher abi: escher? escher is a functional logic programming language at http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Research/Declarative/escher.html 09:30am thats a 404 abi: escher is a functional logic programming language at http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~jwl/escher.html ...but escher is a functional logic programming language at http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Research/Declarative/escher.html... abi: no, escher is a functional logic programming language at http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~jwl/escher.html okay, smkl. that page doesnt link to the pubs by the other guy does it? hmm, which pubs? by eder well, it links to eder's homepage would u think to follow such a link? often following every home link leads to no additional project related stuff oh well abi: escher is also see also http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Tools/Reports/Authors/eder.html okay, smkl. 09:40am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1021.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1021.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf17.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1021.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us111.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES ( <k!14>) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us111.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us111.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us111.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us111.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-73.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lewis.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- lewis.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(8)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(481)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(580)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(19)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(1061)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 35 users per server) -:- [total channels created(331)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lewis.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 14 (13 clients) !lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Tunes http://www.tunes.org || Slate http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ water http://www.linux.com/interviews/20000322/46/ -:- topic set by hcf [Sat Apr 1 06:59:39 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:5)] [ TUNES ] [ Downix ] [ smoke ] [ smkl ] [ Fare ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 9.077 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp151.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1042.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr]) -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-73.ici.net]) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (cul8r!) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1042.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1042.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-241.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate@ppp-207-151-70-98.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1042.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1042.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- ult [ult@user-38lc60g.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1042.javanet.com]) -:- water [water@tnt-10-96.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey all Heya! -:- c420s [dfkj@host1-28.prestige.net] has joined #tunes hello c420s hey hm where'd the topic go? -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes - Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/ -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes - Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate - http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html that'll do c420s: are you familiar with tunes? nope * c420s/#tunes is reading the page ok Reflective Computing System? yeah check the glossary or the faq it's an os built on a high-level language that can modify itself s/it's/it will be/ ;) whoah, this is kinda cool you think so? 06:30pm :P don't get me wrong... some people really just don't get it did you guys actually do anything significant yet? the idea is neat well i only joined a year ago i'm working on the slate language as a tunes hll strategy Fare used to be the leader, but now he does little of that Fare is the impeader. heh :P but he wrote up most of the site, though if you want something that works Right Now that is sort of like Tunes, try squeak abi squeak? squeak is a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars! Squeak is quite awsome, IMHO cool Squeak is nifty IMNSHO ;) rmm, just yesterday you were vehemently opposed to squeak and its ilk... mm, who? you? :) um, no. Squeaks a fun toy. I'd never write a serious app in it, but it's a fun toy. i'm sorry, but its not a toy it definitely looks like one, though 06:40pm Ok, so it *looks* like one. and you can roll a "serious" interface over it and strip out the unnecessary fluff now and i honestly can't think of a better way to write code that runs on at least a dozen oses without any changes to the source -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) water: Perl? Java? water: Tcl? no, both of those languages differ on the platform Hmm, thats true I guess. But not by too much... really it's about the libraries there damn it i wanted to discuss something serious 06:50pm -:- ult_ [ult@user-37kbamm.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes agg -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc60g.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- ult_ is now known as ult 07:00pm -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- c420s [dfkj@host1-28.prestige.net] has left #tunes [] -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes hey sam 07:10pm -:- lar1 is now known as lar_away * water/#tunes contemplates equational specification -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1009.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hey hcf no one to talk to tonight :( perhaps, theyre all talked out from all the noise today what noise? on #dolphin oh of course did u read the #tunes log? yep why? so u saw the escher urls 08:10pm yeah but i'm already all-too-familiar with func-log languages rewriting being an interesting extension/generalization of it have u thot about posting to comp.compilers at all? or would they be too implementation oriented why would they be interested? perhaps worth a shot i haven't even looked at that group yet, though hm what angle do you suggest? hmm, novelty? er... how so? its not like reimpl'ing a lang to host an extention to it, its a new lang w/ new ideas i'd better finish cleaning up the site before i advertise again, though yeah, i was about to say that 08:20pm -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh1-port45.snet.net] has joined #tunes hey hey rares wsup thinkin' of course uhuh i forget... you were going to explain something to me last night, but i forget what it was forth meta dictionaries my own little idea oh yeah and how they relate to slate now here's the key most of the time API designers try to do it all and accomplish none of it I'm going to avoid that i'm thinking a forth dictionary closer to everything.blockstackers.com makes more sense the idea is this er * water/#tunes keeps listening every object has a shape (number of slots) if we have a way to recognize patterns then any dictionary would be shareable well i've learned to be wary of references in research to pattern-recognition but if you base it on user-provided recognition constructs, i'll accept that by pattern i don't mean completely abstracting to the point of absurdity good see I'm learning from my mistakes :) every object eventually interfaces with reality (aka the cpu, hardware, tc) s/tc/etc, all you need to do is match the same functions so basically you need example objects you're just talking about annotating a language environment with primitives, right? a set of roseta stones if you will that's part of it i won't (about the rosetta stone metaphor) 08:30pm give me some more concrete example gimme a minute there's two cases one where simply different names are used to define the same components of the same thing and one where it's a completely different approach sorry you're losing me the best example is all the overhead that goes into writing Dynamic HTML that both IE and Netscape understand what do you mean by the first case? uh i have no idea about that speak of a real programming language, please the simplest of the first case is translating code written in spanish (I know the standard for programming is English, but that's the best example) using different symbol-bindings for primitives? yes the second case is a bit more annoying * water/#tunes wonders what this has to do with the price of tea in china hehe the Dynamic HTML isn't important it's the object calling conventions in netscape and IE that I'm referring to which are totally foreign to me -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-136-190.s190.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes netscape wants window[thefrontpage].frame[navigation] IE wants thefrontpage.navigation ok you're talking about reification of coersion that makes coding aggravating yes i know s/coersion/coercion/ right one other situation comes to mind Fare would tell you to use reflection and lambda-calc 08:40pm well thatr's nice and dandy but not every one has read FARe iow lisp macros that's the problem with forth not everyone agrees with Fare. i'm just giving you the tunes perspective from the horse's mouth but tell me about this problem with forth to one guy a pair of glasses is defined according to simple terms like distance and focus point to another it two lenses and a frame yeah formal models, ontologies, yada yada exactly forth sucks in that it's extremely liberating beg pardon? but you could fix that by having an auxiliary set of knowledge (common sense it's the same thing cyc discovered) forth let's you define anything anyway you want sure which makes code sharing difficult right which basically amounts to difficulty in relating terms of different systems ok we're on the same page... what do you intend to do about this? but if you had the generic examples that the funky code could compared to you could create a coherent system of sharing and linking objects and yes user-specified recognition constructs hm if you use forth you have to put the system through kindergarten this sounds like higher-order equational stuff as in maude how would you do this in forth? haven't seen maude abi: maude? maude is a reflective rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ or http://www.csl.sri.com/~duran/ go see it maude rocks... and it's reflective 8) somewhat like cyc but a bit more timely I have a knack for metaphors and reflection i gotta go back in a bit hope that's useful not yet so you have no scheme for specifying meta-dicts yet? not yet cya in a bit :P k 08:50pm ult: i definitely disagree with Fare about a lot of things -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rares[wtrb-sh1-port45.snet.net]) hm just creating the type system for slate literals will provide good building blocks for a parser and hence mobius hm i think i finally have seen a good sig: "You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think" :) 09:00pm -:- ult_ [ult@user-38lcn7b.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbamm.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- ult_ is now known as ult -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) om * AlonzoTG/#tunes finally understandz toonze. * AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water you think so, eh? yep... What you need is not an evil language, it's an evil compiler.... tell me how you understand tunes evil? u should be throwing all your effort into funky compiler technology. evil = extreme hack. dude the language *is* the compiler technology * water/#tunes slaps AlonzoTG around with Tunes site docs no there is the language and the algorythm for translating it. i think you've completely missed the point =\ * AlonzoTG/#tunes needs a math mentor/tutor. there is no *the* algorithm for compiling tunes just as there is no *the* tunes language =\ well what you are looking for is a compiler technology rather than a language technology. it's the same, atg 09:30pm =\ okay, that's it... * AlonzoTG/#tunes works water over with a 2x4 ugh although i'm sure in your own terms you are right okay... Communication is fun! usually the Zen *master* wields the stick, not the insolent pupil :) Especially when one or both of the communicators has a shaky understanding of what is going on... * AlonzoTG/#tunes extracted his book on compilers from his library to be read sometime in the future... =\ I spend all this time studying operating systems only to discover that languages and compilers are where its at! =\ well compiler tech in the self sense would sort of constitute the tunes direction in a limited sense i could have told you that long ago in fact, i think i DID :) Heck I had been avoiding studying compilers in order to focus on operating systems.... man, I'm going to have to order custom chips with no hardware protection... =\ * water/#tunes returns to reading okay, thanks. atg: try squeak... look at its self-hosted compiler 09:40pm maybe in a day or so... I really don't get much milage out of my braine in a day... -:- nate37 [nate@ppp-206-117-3-94.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes 09:50pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- lar_away is now known as lar1 re Hey 10:20pm later -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Gracias!) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 11:00pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp23.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- lohm_ [tfb506@cks1.rz.uni-rostock.de] has joined #tunes hi -:- lohm_ is now known as lohmi 11:40pm [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0404 IRC log ended Tue Apr 4 00:00:00 2000