IRC log started Tue Mar 28 00:00:00 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0328 -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-134.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us312.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Ping timeout for dalvarez[212.68.72.98]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-138.s392.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn2.delft.casema.net]) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-203-138.s392.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-236.s490.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn99.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr]) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes >>> Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-27.vpn.uib.no] requested PING 954264707 from #tunes blah opn is splitting more than efnet 09:20am * Fufie/#tunes yaaawns * Fufie/#tunes thinks it's time for a developer release of sds today -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- jr [junior@ppp19.arra.com.pl] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-274.ici.net] has joined #tunes hello all anyone here awake? 10:30am no ok 10:40am this -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (User pressed ^C five times.) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn99.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 11:10am -:- SignOff jr: #TUNES (jr has no reason) dum di dum.. release is out -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: try our lowfat flavor too!) 11:40am abi: where is SDS? i heard SDS was a framework for developing programming tools such as source level documenters, source browsers, source metric collectors, and similar. or at http://sds.yi.org/ 12:00pm -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-121.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [12:27pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn99.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes dalvarez: can you check on the sds sourceforge page whether the durvey is accessible? survey Fufie I will 12:40pm Fufie: where should that survey link appear? -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-121.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] hopefully on the project page at sourceforge sds.yi.org and then click project page actually ghyll put a link at sds.yi.org there's one entiteled 'surveys'. it works but seems to output an ID that should have been kept internal survey|id|survey title has either a numerical survey field and no id or no survey field Code Repository Downloads blank.gif blank.gif Admin Surveys for Software Development Foundation Survey ID Survey Title 10344 I want the developers to focus their attention on the follwing (5 means most wanted)... blank.gif All trademarks and copyrights on this page are properties of their respective owners. Forum comments are owned by the poster. The rest is copyright C1999-2000 VA Linux Systems, Inc. 12:50pm can you find the survey? 1 5 (*) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) A fully working front-end for Python 2 (*) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) A fully working front-end for Java (almost finished) 3 (*) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) A fully working front-end for C++ 4 (*) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) A fully working front-end for Lisp that's what I get great :) thanks :) the first one is output twice ah... it just line-wrapped out of context it's ok.. 01:00pm does common lisp have regexp support of some sort? i can't seem to find anything about it in the docs i have several implementations have regex support.. it's not in the standard though clisp has one, and acl has one at least hm 01:10pm hum i have to compile a seperate clisp in order to use the regexp module.. weird system :/ -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (zzzleep) 01:20pm -:- rares [user8282@155.43.18.249] has joined #tunes -:- rares [user8282@155.43.18.249] has left #tunes [] -:- ult [ult@user-37kbav4.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-219-151.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (reflecting) * Fufie/#tunes tum te tums * Ghyll/#tunes wonders why www.sourceforge.net/~karltk doesn't work while sds.sourceforge.net/~karltk does.. -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ult [ult@user-38lc6es.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc6es.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-247-101.s101.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-247-101.s101.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-113.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-113.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-248-107.s361.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp35.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by king.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is sterling.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 15 12:37 EDT(from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- sterling.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(100)] 11% -:- [global users on irc(420)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(520)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(19)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(940)] -:- [unknown connections(1)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 31 users per server) -:- [total channels created(308)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !sterling.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 117 (110 clients) !sterling.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Tunes http://www.tunes.org || Slate http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ water http://www.linux.com/interviews/ -:- topic set by hcf [Mon Mar 27 20:23:46 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:6)] [ TUNES ] [ smkl ] [ eihrul ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ Fufie ] [ abi ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 9.999 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us835.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-154.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-154.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-157.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-157.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us835.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us835.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-153.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-59.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes slate 06:00pm wow * water/#tunes has received arrow fan mail from another russian cool... I'll have to look at your arrow stuff... it'a kinda like a byte, etc... right? what's with these russians and arrows? argggg! * water/#tunes slaps nate37 around with a Big Clue Stick (TM) somebody saidthat. i didn't come up with it. yes it's metaphorically like a bit although at the opposite end of a spectrum of information constructs ok btw all, icuc, i figured out a general-purpose co-induction framework for slate :) most likely, i'll throw the idea out to the list for feedback what is co-induction? abi tell nate37 about icct co-induction is the opposite of induction sort of 06:10pm -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-72-216.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes co-induction has no starting point and divides up the universe into logical things as information gets added -:- nate37_ [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-146.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[ppp-206-117-27-153.dialup.pcmagic.net]) -:- nate37_ is now known as nate37 -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-146.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] 06:20pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us835.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us835.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-248-107.s361.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) ping PONG! 07:00pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) great 07:10pm -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250057.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-59.tscnet.net]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-50-153.s407.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-59.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey tcn yup? what do you think of the iepos-bill thread on the tunes mlist? stuff I figured out last year :) heh -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-138.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes today they're complaining about pointers -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) i'd like to see a better way, something better than RDBMS too hm 07:40pm what do you think of slate in comparison? (sorry, i have to ask :) well, it looks less cryptic than Joy hm there was something they mentioned over the weekend... they were wondering if it would ever actually be used (yes, it's the equivalent of ' in forth :) how often is ' used, though? all the time oh :) it's pretty common -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[adsl-63-203-72-216.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: Connection reset by peer) yes i've seen it in forth code, but one can't always tell from forth examples 07:50pm I did a grep of Retro.. not much ' there. I used it for a few jump tables. ok 08:00pm "Thus, two objects can connect if only if there exists meta-objects that agrees." (from hll semantics on tunes.org) what the hell does that mean? -:- ult [ult@user-37kbaq2.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes uhh bah, forget it :) is that like two nodes in a tree are only related if another node points to them? no it's Fare's screwed up way of talking about type-checking language barrier? heh.. we had some guys from France in our office last week "eh how do you do skeepaire?" hehe huh? that's what they said to Skip :) i hear they were introduced to New York wine... heh was it supposed to impress them or something? they probably said "aww this is crap" heh.. 08:10pm actually there are some damn good winemakers here yeah right i bet new jersey's full of them too there's a guy who went over to France and Italy, took cuttings, grafted them onto NY grape bushes damn good wine yeah, french wine ;) lotsa crap made around here too, i'm sure western NY is full of vineyards oh *west* ny yeah n/m then heh i thought you meant "up the hudson" or something what really sucks is California wine especially franzia.. heh no, what sucks is that tunes doesn't exist you hear about those people who robbed a bank, bought a mansion with the money, and filled up the wine cellar with Franzia and Bud Light ? -:- ult_ [ult@user-37kbauk.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #TUnes agreed no and i don't give a s*** * tcn/#tunes laughs -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbaq2.dialup.mindspring.com]) it's getting late wait on bradford's site? still don't see it it was there last fall nate: talk somewhere else, please 08:20pm I updated the retro site, if anyone cares what exists of the kernel is there now cool it appears to do a bit more than Dolphin (it lets you type) :) 08:30pm -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2 cLIeNUX. Can you say that?) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-138.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us835.javanet.com] has joined #tunes wb hi slow night i'm trying to figure out what to write to the mlist whatcha got for ideas so far? well i'd like to discuss how to get co-inductional type systems going in slate, but i don't have all the answers for that so far also i want to respond to this interaction about the philosophy paper and the crap in that guy Kyle Lahnakoski's head but i think i'd better avoid the second what do you think of the iepos-bill thread on the tunes mlist? stuff I figured out last year :) why doesnt tcn help bill and iepos out? i don't know thats tunes for ye 09:20pm get ppl together so they can sit back and feel superior :P write to the list about it, then nah, i'l sit back and feel frustrated instead sounds like a plan ;) nothing i say ever changes anything except w/ u ;) * water/#tunes brumbles a bit grumbles, even grumbles about what? i coded VB all day, and now i can't focus * ult_/#TUnes points at water and laughs well i can casually discuss my ideas on the channel at least, and see if the core of the idea condenses out so here goes... i've figured the simplest way to make co-inductive datatypes in slate would be to use the object-as-set (namespace) metaphor to have containers for the datatypes for example, the integers it also works fine for inductive datatypes.... in fact, i'm thinking that the system won't be able to superficially tell them apart, which is a Good Thing but the big question is how to do it the simplest example possible is to describe induction itself 09:30pm we've got this object called Naturals, and we know (somehow) that zero is in it but zero isn't some world-wide common concept, it's just a selector in that namespace, as far as we know zero has one slot... successor every time you call successor, you want the result to also belong to Naturals and you want the result to have the same behavior as zero everything after that is shorthand assuming '=successor, 1=0', 2=0'', 3=0''', ... but that's just a naming scheme... shortcuts the problem is how to encode this idea into a programming language i've figured out that if this small example is possible, then lots of other much more interesting examples are possible comments so far?? * water/#tunes decides to format this and pipe it to the mlist sounds like a plan ;) icuc, tulsa? http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/did/52935 hm ok what's tulsa? abi: tulsa? it has been said that tulsa is a Thing U've Likely Seen Already oh yeah no i haven't actually 09:40pm http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/gordon94tutorial.html * eihrul/#tunes wakes up. yeah got that one bah! i should have beeped eih just to piss him off, if for no other reason ;) * eihrul/#tunes hmms. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/did/251544 actually co-induction is simpler as i see it than induction, because induction requires the assumption of kernel values, which seems non-intuitive to me * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. what is intuitive for one is not necessarily intuitive for the other :) i find inductive ideas more intuitive but only because i've been more frequently exposed to them well there's always that big cloud called meta-behavior that seems to take care of everything * eihrul/#tunes nods. eihrul... eih: i meant in terms of the scheme i defined above well, yes, defining really large numbers in terms of zero (0''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''....) would be a pain :) hmmm whereas i can define all interesting co-inductive types with equations I found a way to prove Goldbachs Conjecture 09:50pm water: but given a selector.... how does the Natural bmo go from it to some object representing the number, if not inductively :) even inductively... it seems like a problem unless the textual representation of the selector itself can be manipulated eih: :P it's not like i'm against induction i'm just saying i'd like the programming system to have a natural way to solve and work with equations what are you talking about? how to encode the idea into a programming language i think we're not talking in the same language here even inductively... it seems like a problem unless the textual representation of the selector itself can be manipulated *what* seems like a problem? well, how would natural numbers be manipulated by name? :) and why does a textual representation make a difference to this idea? oh geez what an idiot * eihrul/#tunes sighs. i specifically said that they'd be shortcuts yet more inspiring words from the witty mouth of water... just listen you don't have to worry about text at all... you can get a decimal system by encoding sequences of naturals (naturals which happen to be digits) and you can define the type of a bit-field in much the same way was just thinking that... well, it seems the trick is how to fit it into the existing slate model for instance, zero seems to have no state as such but it has to be distinguishable somehow 10:00pm perhaps the mo of naturals would determine that making the selector zero part of naturals' identity (i.e. attempting to change zero results in copying naturals) even then, zero is just a selector with one slot that has some strange behavior 0' doesn't even return another object.... to me, it seems convenient to say that the *expression* is an anonymous slot added to naturals that gets gc'd when done with and that the *expression* object is the only interesting one (by the expression object, i mean an object, say, myApplicCons whose 'car'=0 and whose 'cdr'='successor', say) (something like that, anyway) comments? ping none damn well, i guess 0' returns an anonymous object which has common behavior (and mo) with 0 and also belongs in the same namespace other than the fact that this idea seems inherently inductive (wrt 0) of course it's inductive it's the definition of induction, practically well, yes, that's part of it... 10:10pm hm so part of specifying the result of ' is to specify what container it belongs to as well as it's mo s/it's/its/ in fact, that's nearly all of its definition ah i see something interesting my common clone of naturals could be zero itself and the clone slot of zero would specify a lot of things about its result it would seem intuitive to have the result slot always put its object in the namespace surrounding its own object mm-hmmm does that make sense? i wonder if that can be thrown into meta-behavior or not actually, it almost seems as if you could not have it defined any other way if a given object can only exist in one namespace right but if it were specified by the bmo somehow, then it would be open for customization which would be nice in the long run hm perhaps the fact that result adds an anonymous slot could be investigated closely 10:20pm otoh maybe i should just leave that alone for now, to avoid a headache :) the idea works, but i think there's no way around discussing an open compiler in the course of the analysis well, atm, i can't see any useful reason for having an expression resulting from an object exist outside the namespace of the object that isn't covered by the normal containership/cloning mechanisms themselves hm yes and i already have in mind ways of migrating objects hm so i think we have the core of induction here we could generalize this to cover kernels of multiple objects with multiple slots, even combination methods so we have a way to work with grammars and syntaxes -:- ult [ult@user-37kbass.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult_[user-37kbauk.dialup.mindspring.com]) 10:30pm -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn99.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-155.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes nate: how many times are you going to show up tonight? hi smoke water: sorry... one phone line.. dial-up :( oic well, there's also the question of how to link code with primitively-compiled parts of the compiler with a bytecode machine, you always refer to a special set of routines statically which is non-extensible except dynamically by jit compilation etc * eihrul/#tunes likes trees. 10:40pm plus they're much easier to represent than byte code in slate well normal languages with trees as intermediate code usually have static vocabularies -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn99.delft.casema.net]) how do we do the same thing for a language without much of a core at all? well, i guess we have to normalize the tree to whatever primitives do exist... but how could we do that? -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn99.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes maybe the environment could have reflective data structures that made the primitive-list open basically they'd be bindings from objects to some external set of objects representing the primitives that the environment currently provides though, i'm not sure normalization actually applies here except as an optimization yeah that sounds like the self-ish way the only thing that would really seems to be essential is representing the 'message send' which could be inherent to the tree structure itself yes at least it seems that way (although any alternative seems like it would be very odd) 10:50pm oh wait.... slot management will always need primitives however, there'd be nothing wrong with providing alternatives even for function-application but you'd still want to have such changes be immutable (not affecting the original primitives or code) well i'll put as much as i can of this to the list, as it's reflection-related * eihrul/#tunes needs to start working on a compiler soon. would be nice if i could write it in slate :) well the language ain't done yet i still don't have bmo's figured out perhaps top should only be externally-specified at first yeah that seems ok 11:00pm hm this mail is getting a bit long... i may as well split it up 11:30pm -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-13.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey dx hey water 11:40pm [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0329 IRC log ended Wed Mar 29 00:00:02 2000