IRC log started Thu Feb 24 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0224 http://g.oswego.edu/dl/oosdw3/cenetslides/cenetslides.html do you realize how much control you have over the issues i address? :) u dont steer me all the time, so i have to of course, but when you couple that with the fact that you pretty much prompted the whole slate project, it amounts to something significant iow, i took what u merely mentioned earlier, recursive messages and such and found object.dcs.fmph.uniba.sk w/ the terms specificly found the survey 12:10am did i prompt it? i named it and pushed heh. i finally found a good button to push :) slate is less over the heads of ppl than arrow, i expected more participants two > zero iirc along w/ its influences being much the same as tunes' yeah well i doubt even Fare's read the tunes stuff as much as i have heh i've read the entire site docs once a month for the last three to four years no joke there's still stuff i'm not sure even Fare has a clue about in some way, i guess, slate "puts ppl's money where they mouths are" let's hope it does considering the language isn't done yet keep in mind though, that nothing of slate has ever reached the tunes mlist (or even the slate mlist) we've got an active HLL project ( s/project/object/ ;) now lets see some poop get done by the ppl who've talked so much right well it seems i still have to learn some things, particularly from these pages you've referred me to 12:20am i was gonna suggest that u post to tunes@ the good links but i dont know if anyone would care bill probably would fare and tril care, but are too busy to say anything or even consider new points of contention -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-28.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes is there busy-ness seasonal or permanent? hi foof s/there/their/ morning i don't know for sure that depends on them, really i could question their dedication to get tunes done, but it's academic heh the way i measure that is by comparing between tunes and squeak tunes handles a lot more involving design issues than squeak -:- SignOff n8j: #TUNES (Ping timeout for n8j[1Cust29.tnt5.det3.da.uu.net]) which requires a lot of attention from a core group of people squeak has that, but it's transparent to the mlist the former xerox parc guys and their associates at disney handle those issues for squeak, appealing to the mlist mostly for democratic purposes -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [12:28am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn27.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 12:30am so it's a simple inference to make that tunes needs more resources to accomplish even its basic design and specification, and that the mlist doesn't address that at all, in terms of its social make-up if anyone disagrees here, please say so like #tunes and #modtunes (or like how they were ment to be) hm ok these are really interesting issues in these papers you passed to me -:- water_ [water@tnt-9-10.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes water: sure tunes need resources.. but it also need a core which people can hack away on and experiment on.. otherwise it remains vapour and pretentious vocabulary -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-121.tscnet.net]) no kidding, i happen to be working on a core, don't i? -:- water_ is now known as water do you? yes, slate I don't see that as a core yet.. you have one called lisp, iirc I am actually talking of the vm at the core well you also don't read tunes docs very often vm?!? vm yes 12:40am bytecode machine or something more sophisticated ? tunes docs seldom change, and when they do I am notified you're just being an ass again you haven't helped anything with your "suggestions" here no it is you who act like a ass.. accusing people of bullshit all the fscking time here we go again "well you also don't read tunes docs very often" -:- water [water@tnt-9-10.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] pah abi: piccola is a small composition language, based on Pi calculus at http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Research/Piccola/ 12:50am -:- water [water@tnt-9-10.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes got more words of wisdom for me, foof? ;) or are you going to be as disrespectful and useless as ever? 01:40am you're a useless lurker and lisp fanatic good night -:- water [water@tnt-9-10.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] nite 01:50am -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf18.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-26.s26.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-28.vpn.uib.no]) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-11.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) BULLWHIP! 06:40am -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port75.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port75.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us321.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port4.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-31.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-31.vpn.uib.no]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us832.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port4.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-220.s474.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by devlin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: No route to host -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from varley.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is varley.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from varley.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from varley.openprojects.net) -:- varley.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(38)] 5% -:- [global users on irc(349)] 43% -:- [invisible users on irc(471)] 57% -:- [ircops on irc(11)] 1% -:- [total users on irc(820)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(26)] (avg. 31 users per server) -:- [total channels created(256)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !varley.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 58 (53 clients) !varley.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System @ http://www.tunes.org || slate @ http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by hcf [Mon Feb 21 21:46:34 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ abi ] [ hcf ] [ smkl ] [ smoke ] [ Plundis ] [ thomas ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 5.981 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- bineng [Anders@130.236.227.141] has joined #tunes hoy bineng hello. Does anyone know how assembler languages return values from a subroutine? I mean after a CALL, pushing the process state on the stack 12:30pm the return value is in a register So there are conventions which register to use? yes. on ix86 ax is often used ic bineng: icuc, http://www.linuxassembly.org 12:40pm now that's a useful acronym. I'll remember that one. its my invention :) cool 12:50pm Would I want directories in a ftp server file tree +x for some reason? oh ehm. a lot of assembler routines use the stack and the +x is useful if you want to acc(x)ess the entries of the driectory :) but how can you pass values over the stack when you need to pop the ip? smoke: Yeah, I found out about the +x *after* I had done a "chmod -R -x *" :P on x86, generally routines that return an integer do that through eax (char and short int in al and ax respectively) you use a specific data stack pointer register for that, which isn't affected by the stack pointer register for the code address you have esp and ebp on x86 for that oh, that explains it 01:40pm at least that's how i thought it worked :)) but that means there's other stack registers for code i'm not quite sure but i think the code stack uses esp, and the data ebp no, I think ebp is "base pointer", ie tells where the stack ends bineng: just compile something to asm and see yourself bineng: hum i guess you're right there bineng: hm i'm being told i was mistaken :) you are? perhaps it just stores eip on the stack ? call function == push eip; jmp function ret == pop eip; jmp there so before going into the function, call puts eip on the first 4 bytes of the stack if you pop eip, do you need to jump? that's the way it's done.. forget what i said before :] smkl: popl %eip == movl (%esp), %eip smkl: (figuratively speaking) but.. how would you push the return value? smkl: oh wait i get the meaning of your question now -- true, you don't need the additional jmp : the place that is returned to will want to pop its saved values too smkl: but you can't modify %eip by hand, it's all implicitly through ret/call/jmp the moment you pop EIP, you are transferred there and don't get the chance to push the return value bineng: RET probably decreases the stack pointer by 4 automatically (and CALL adds 4) (or the other way around ;) heh bineng: you push the return value before popping eip when you leave a function of course 01:50pm but if you do "push retval; pop eip", you don't quite get what you wanted ;) you don't push return values, you return in registers larger values are allocated in caller i think (in C) smkl: iirc some syscalls push returnvalues on the stack bineng: `pop eip' does not exist. `ret' does more than only pop eip you could go around manipulating the stack by hand ofc.. hardly neat though bineng: what's this for btw? :) smoke: oh? what does it do then? smoke: I was thinking of how returning values could be done in a VM or something bineng: what size are those values? no special size.. I was thinking in general terms 02:00pm bineng: hm just reading here that you can also use ENTER and LEAVE for that. but i think that's not being used often yes.. I never really understood what those did neither do i :) :) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has left #tunes [] -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes 02:10pm -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for bineng[130.236.227.141]) -:- bineng [Anders@130.236.227.141] has joined #tunes * bineng/#tunes mumbles something about 'crappy network' -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for bineng[130.236.227.141]) -:- bineng [Anders@130.236.227.141] has joined #tunes hrm 02:20pm -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port214.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us832.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us1016.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp212.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hoy eihrul -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust221.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf lo Hey om -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z!) 03:00pm -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial341.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes hoy Kaufmann * AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at Kaufmann -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial341.infolink.com.br]) 03:20pm bineng: Did you get your CALL question answered sufficently? lar1: well if you know better.. -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port214.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] "For an intrasegment dirrect CALL, SP is decremented by two and IP is pushed no to the stack. The target procedure's relatice displacemnet from the CALL instrution is then added to IP." -iAPX 88 databook s/no/on s/relatice/relitive in other words, the IP is pushed and then changed. ok, but that wasn't really the question It wasn't? no the question was how return values get back to the caller "RET pops the word at the top of the stack into IP and increments SP by two." If its intersegment, it pops CS first. ie pop IP. Yes, but... :) the return value? 03:30pm I guess there's convention in that. Oh. Hmm.. I've never used call to use a function that returns a value bineng: return value is stuffed in a register designated for that purpose by ABI I guess I *could* assemble something and look at it, but nah.. in GCC for example, it happens to be EAX Heh, I was thinking stack so much I forgot about registers... ;) eihrul: that's the simplest solution.. so it's used, ok. And large values? Are they just passed by reference? bineng: for large values, the address of where to write the result is passed and usually this space is allocated on the stack before calling on the stack? not heap? uh, why on heap? stack is considerably faster all you do is a single subtraction with the stack pointer one instruction k 03:40pm -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES (bye and thanks for all the fish <k!14>) erg! I saw a sun box once... running this operating system I can't recall All I remember is that it ran the hotjava browswer very nicely and it had 2 mice connected... I like that :) sunos or solaris? I don't know I was too little at the time to notice Thasts what I was gonna ask though.... is *nix, sunos, and solaris the only oses for sun? 04:30pm well, sunos and solaris are the only ones i know of hmm, ok but the *bsds and linux should run on it Do you know what kind of moniter the Sparc2 works with? nope 04:40pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp212.lvdi.net]) * hcf/#tunes is away: (afk) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp28.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1016.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1016.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@137.194.160.71] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) Gakuk * AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on Fare -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) 05:40pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-139-50.s304.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.137.244.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us722.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[dialup-209.245.137.244.SanJose1.Level3.net]) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.244.104.90.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh5-port30.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-130-8.s516.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes CHAPTER SIX!!!! OF?? 09:20pm -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp292.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[dialup-209.244.104.90.SanJose1.Level3.net]) -:- lar1 [larman@63.23.12.73] has joined #tunes -:- future [xdef@209-6-184-165.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hello Hey 11:00pm -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh5-port30.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0225 IRC log ended Fri Feb 25 00:00:03 2000