IRC log started Mon Jan 31 00:00:03 2000 not quite what i was referring to, but sure :) [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0131 What does cooking eggs have to do with cs? nothing, that's his point :) ah -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) You know what I am going to do? Sleep i'm glad to hear that I can't find a tape nevermind you don't want to hear my story ;) Good night you're right -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) boy. juggling the reading of academic cs papers with a #tunes discussion is dizzying 12:10am another thought: in an open src situation you cannot expect anything, any part, any job, to ever be completed. You have to be capable of maintaining, without requiring delivery on expected date, or with very long delays ok are you familiar with squeak at all? me? no abi tell Eeeep23 about squeak eep: that problem is mostly solved by the "doing it yourself" paradigm which may also be interpreted as "motivate others" word ;) heh -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) water: what kind of hardware are you using for programming mostly? hw? 350mhz k6-2, 128mb ram, .... my laptop's a little oldeer hardware since you like squeak and all i expect a cannon of a machine heh no squeak is slow :) i don't like it for speed but the new jit compiler should help that out aha and the type-inference engine water: the language you're working on - is it to be implemented? of course it's a toss-up right now between clisp, scheme and squeak 12:20am water: in what language will you write it? i'm always interested in how people bootstrap the first version of a language on it self but then i've still got to finalize the spec like i said, clisp, scheme, or squeak then i'll write the self-hosted compiler typical how many languages' first application is its compiler. one would expect the design to lean towards that fact. well, i can port objects from smalltalk and self and such pretty easily hm well, maybe iirc you love a clean and simple design, no? but the compiler dev should result in enough useful objects from which to build an environment yes common lisp isn't the simplest of designs as far as i can tell (i've only been experimenting with it for one or two months) you're definitely right about that does scheme have macro functionality? i only know guile as a scheme, and have used it very little good question.... i don't know i don't think it has.. judging from some voice in my head that says `scheme is clean' heh macros are dirty? just look at a typical common lisp macro and you know it :) tell that to Fufie some time :) haha, i'd better not he'll bite your head off i don't know if the idea of macros -per se- is ugly though.. i have too little programming language design skills to make an opinion on that i'd never get past a simple scripting language well, fufie's big thing about lisp is that it's a "programmable programming language" which is true isn't that true for all languages (if i understand that definition correctly) ? but it's not enough for me not quite printf("int main() { printf(\"hello world\\n\"); }"); it's the combination of sexp syntax with purely applicative style so you can adapt the syntax trivially ehm. what's a sexp exactly? a lisp list aha 12:30am hm it is indeed a nice feature of lisp.. smalltalk has it too, i take it? not quite in smalltalk you define the class with the protocol that supports the syntax you want (not in the form of some parenthesis though) you can't adapt running code in smalltalk? which isn't always trivial i'm not sure squeak gave me the feeling that everything could be changed in realtime but i have not investigated any further after some left clicking smalltalk does have it's limititions, as i've recently become accutely aware so does self even and squeak? squeak=smalltalk aha i thought it was smalltalk offspring the environment is what's the offspring about squeak not the language any other languages you know of that are programmable in itself? hm besides all the lisp variants definitely forth and offspring maybe maude counts too ah i should have a look at forth one day.. it must be a really weird language heh it's not too bad is there a simple forth implementation to toy with? yeah, there are a few good forths out there even a forth os called 4os wow there's www.forth.org i can't recommend a "cool" forth implementation though yeah so in the proposed ideal system we're talking about segregation: pass by value, instanciation, seperate name or process spaces. ...I guess i'm trying to ask: would locks on members be more efficient? or is this probably too much of a programmers nightmare to be worth it? huh? "locks on members" = ? the whole idea of reflection is that you don't have static policy and i don't know where you pulled that information from at all eep: you're not an AI bot are you? :) 12:40am ok lol brb i just looked at some of the things eep's written, and for the most part they could be generated automatically for any openprojects channel :) it makes you paranoid :) his username betrayed him.. `nobody@spk-79.cet.com' enough nonsense - let's investigate forth :) btw, that joy discussion on tunes explains forth as well water: what do you mean ? forth and joy have the same basic semantics aha although the syntax and implementation are different i misparsed `joy' :) um no, i don't recall any happy discussions on tunes mlist lately :) 12:50am lol I'm part of the borg... i don't remember how to form human readable sentences,, sorry to bother you. Perhaps when I'm less sleepy.. :) heh eep: no offense intended water: forth seems very powerful - as in cpu friendly, is that correct? yep water: comparable to C ? (in that respect) false happens to be a forth extension that has a 1k compiler forth primitives are short instruction sequences it's very simple to write a forth environment kernel in assembly but then what are the drawbacks? (btw, did you notice that 1K compiler statement i made? :) i did :) memory management usually forth systems also limit identifier sizes but after brainfuck, no compiler gets me impressed :) but good implementations don't have that limitation heh 01:00am yeah but bf code is 10x longer than false code btw, false is on the 99 bottles of beer page and the quine page, and has the shortest code of all grin :) but i'd never use it without a front-end what do you mean with identifier sizes? the stringlength of a variable? yeah, it was originally 5 bytes and with memory management you're referring to the lack of a gc ? no, a lack of any modularity whatsoever eek i did notice a `class' keyword in some source file just there although until improves on that a bit heh who comes UP with these names :) (until is another forth successor) well, i really prefer false with a frontend even to `until'? where can i read about either false or until? well... the language seems interesting for demos not sure though abi wouter? hmmm... wouter is the creator of many interesting programming languages at http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~wvo96r/proglang/index.html abi until? water: no idea hm wouter wrote false aha A very cryptic but very pure Forth type language with anonymous it's the third word heh i just consider it a bytecode language the fact that you can actually *read* it to me is just an afterthought i've been trying to come up with a language for realtime synthesized music, but i don't even know what to compile it to squeak has siren i suppose a bytestream protocol would be fastest yes, i had a look at that but couldn't make any sense out of it hm -:- MISHA2 [user4254@as-8-178.tm.net.my] has joined #tunes -:- MISHA2 [user4254@as-8-178.tm.net.my] has left #tunes [] too bad smalltalk is too hard for me to understand easily lol most people rank it down with logo :) yeah i really don't understand that you should get yourself a good smalltalk tutorial not grok logo?!? and you program? i haven't had a look at logo for ages.. iirc it's lisp without parentheses 01:10am ? kinda but 6yr-olds usually can grok logo lol well i had trouble :) plus 5 4 and things like that iirc dude.. disney's developing squeak for education ARE THEY? arghl what's this world coming to and multimedia i KNEW disney had some evil plan with it that's not evil, man it's just alan kay up to his old tricks :) yeah right, wait until Donald pops up as the interpreter and mickey "The Garbage Collector" mouse waves funny faces at you lol no, not like that i hope so :) i never liked disney they're all a bunch of american moralists to me but alas i shouldn't say these things. squeak may be a nice language well, they're an evil big corporation, but they can't corrupt squeak without screwing themselves over hm the `Forth want ads' were updated last in 1998 so i guess i won't make myself more expensive learning it water: have you any idea when the Review project will be `over' ? lol that is - focus being shifted towards actually choosing a hll when tunes exists oh maybe slate will help decide that even if the hll won't be slate ah, so the way to go is to just implement a new language and add it to the front of the Review queue ? heh don't be scared - i won't write one :) no but slate is being developed almost directly from the hll blurb they can't help but try it when i get it working and that should help them decide whether they really want that or something else are you using a LLL to base it on too? to access hardware for example.. ? or is that implementation dependant and not to the language? man, screw implementing the lll before the hll hehe the lll happens to just be a shorthand for "stuff in the self-hosted hll compiler" hm i'm not sure i read the lll blurb over and over again until i was absolutely sure of it perhaps your languages is completely unsuited to write a gc in? read the damned thing yourself (for example) 01:20am no it will be all-general ? there's a very good high-level framework already that covers lots of gc ideas it's called equational rewrite oh the gc was just an example, i meant to say `Feature X' well, if my language is more versatile than self, i'd say it can handle it (and it is :) heh :) will it relate Anything to your arrows ideas btw? trust me, i've found lots of flaws in self yes ah, neat! i'm going to write a co-inductive type system in it that will be a basis for arrow dynamic type system, that is er... co-inductive AND dynamic i read co inductive tApe system and was very puzzled. i'm misreading and misparsing a lot these days heh you really need a dictionary bot here, i don't understand 30% of the >6-letter-words used here (or better yet i should spend a day at the library) sorry, i really climb through the research no, a library won't answer for my terms you gotta be online ok, what does co-inductive mean then? :) abi icct? i think icct is Interaction, Computability, and Church's Thesis at http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/pw/papers/bcj1.pdf it has a good intro aha! thanks a better explanation is in the book "vicious circles" actually, co-induction's been around for quite a while, but only in mathematical logical principles -:- Eeeep23 [nobody@spk-79.cet.com] has left #tunes [] and even then, only in non-standard logics i know standard logic :) that's a start good oh bother no acroread no ghostview either? can that read .pdf? dude i live and die by ghostview yes wow great 01:30am i use `gv' but it renders very slow.. (perhaps i should say my p100 renders very slow) xdvi on the other hand renders blazingly fast.. if i didn't have ghostview, i'd have to print out 100 pages of text a day yeah dvi is better but non-printable (not that I print anything) how come xdvi can be so much faster then? i'd suppose it's the same idea do you use gv, gview or ghostview btw ? dvi is just a screen preview format... optimized for crt's well, i have to use GSView while online i hadn't thought of that permutation because linux doesn't speak to my modem correctly (afaik) isdn modem? no, us robotics pci pnp i gotta trade for an external so i can use beos and linux while online :) no /dev/ttyS? support for it? hell if i know heh i don't even know any linux ppl irl wow it may be that i've been limiting my social life to linux enthusiasts and a girlfriend, but i surely don't have that `problem' hell, i'm probably the only person to have installed linux and xfree86 on a laptop at sea as a newbie i even got my zip drive working sea? i'm in the navy i work on nuclear reactor electronics etc scary no, boring don't make too much bugs please lol 01:40am now i know where you got your handle from no, my handles not about that at all oh? a really hate the navy the water reference is about taoism hum of course i don't know any tao what does it refer to? the washing water? :) no water works without effort it flows naturally without having to think about it hm far fetched but true not far fetched just not what "respectible" people think about anyway just read any simple book on taoism and it'll discuss water hm not really interested.. i always think things like that to be `outdated' and when i'm not working intently on these projects, i am very much the taoist if i have the time i'll get a booklet :) yeah whatever the matrix even has taoist ideas only after seeing the end of days matrix wasn't so bad after all in other words, i didn't really like it :) perhaps i missed the taoist ideas :) most people did i only got irritated by the simplistic ideas about technology like the `major hacker' using two keyboards and still type qwerty otoh, most people are as perceptive as blind people can see and the idiocracy of green terminals yeah, you're blind you took it too seriously yeah right don't worry, i hate all coders :) if i feel pity for every hollywood producer then every movie has a meaning.. but that will most probably be my own thought, not that of the moneymakers lol case in point you can't possibly enjoy a sci-fi flick then you should know how much i liked Akira ah that also had taoist themese btw, taoism ain't a set of beliefs could we discuss a non taoist movie so i get to learn the concept better? :)))) jk taoism is just about metaphors 01:50am hm to support you in everyday life? there's no truth or reality or life or death or as a means of philosophizing? neither interesting in the tao, there is no coherent idea of self btw, zen is a descendent of tao and buddhism -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) hm anyway, all of my big computing ideas are just about making a human language that supports taoist ideas is taoism meant to be `useful' of some sort? lol sure, it's useful in some ways but no one "meant" it to be who made it up then? no one invented it either it originates from China ? that's what people think any shamanic culture had some form of the idea of taoism in china, it actually survived as opposed to the west, where we slaughter stupid shamans :) hm hm btw, "tao" means "way" roughly aha it's all very `vague' to me the tao of something is it's "natural" way of being and becoming it's supposed to be vague? "the tao that can be known is not the eternal tao" that's a 4000-yr old saying that sure is vague so is "computation" :) define it for me :) that statement actually *defines* taoism `determining something by mathematical or logical methods' lol (thank you wordnet :) bullshit math formalisms are defined by computable verification of proofs in a minute we're talking about Godel vague and circular circular, but not vague yeah whatever