IRC log started Fri Jan 21 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0121 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff deega: #TUNES (BitchX: don't leave home without it!) -:- Zhivago [brian@61.8.3.96] has joined #tunes hmm, I'm looking for os time-use analysies any clues? :) 01:00am -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (weekend ...) -:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES (Read error to thomas[193.217.63.152]: EOF from client) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-189.s189.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: asimov.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [04:46am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [asimov.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: asimov.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [root@d-gnaps-200.ici.net] has joined #tunes anyone awake? -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn182.delft.casema.net]) 06:30am -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error to Downix[d-gnaps-200.ici.net]: EOF from client) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-200.ici.net] has joined #tunes I'm awake 06:40am ok -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn232.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 06:50am Hum. the cvs pserver is down :( 07:00am yeah, I sent an email about that, I hope it comes back up one day. ;) 07:10am pdm: are you knowledgeable about setting up a cvs server? yeah, I've set one up a few times. pdm: I haven't. Can you help me repair? else, you'll have to wait for Tril to read his mail... no problem, but I have a meeting in 10 minutes. Will you be around in a few hours? maybe, maybe not. If not, then Tril should be around. coolo, I'll mention it to someone then, then. :) is it meant to be started through inetd or what? 07:20am -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- Guadeloup [Guadeloupe@cr250960-a.poco1.bc.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Guadeloup: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-128-189.s189.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-200.ici.net] has left #tunes [Bye] -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-189.s189.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-128-189.s189.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- Opt1ckz [user4443@LAURA030-1258.splitrock.net] has joined #tunes -:- Opt1ckz [user4443@LAURA030-1258.splitrock.net] has left #tunes [] -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-138-214.s214.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes Fare: Sorry, away at meeting. ;) cvs is typically started through inetd, yes. -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pdm: #TUNES (Leaving) 09:20am -:- craxy [mibin@62.11.105.100] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has left #tunes [] -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- Scotty [user8094@p31-nsv2-cardiff3.tch.dtn.ntl.com] has joined #tunes hi :) anyone awake? yes hi you seem to be what? bye -:- Scotty [user8094@p31-nsv2-cardiff3.tch.dtn.ntl.com] has left #tunes [] probably he assumed i was awake 10:00am you seem to be 10:10am I second that 10:20am hmm eihrul is added as a tunes-member :) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1028.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Nisa [user7074@fw1.nybe.on.ca] has joined #tunes -:- Nisa [user7074@fw1.nybe.on.ca] has left #tunes [] 11:10am -:- SignOff craxy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for craxy[62.11.105.100]) -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp159.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- rilel [rilel@c2171.racs.surfree.net.il] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- rilel [rilel@c2171.racs.surfree.net.il] has left #tunes [] -:- rilel [rilel@c2171.racs.surfree.net.il] has joined #tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-238-103.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes hei hei * bineng/#tunes works hard to dechiffer the secret, foreign messages hej bineng hejsan tjena making any progress on the glossary of meta* words? a little, perhaps -:- jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes hullo jdl hola hi jim how did the interview work out? -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System || slate || binEng's glossary fufie: first one, not so well. Second one, very well. We'll see... bin: Do you want to finish up the glossary discussion? I'll see what's left to do btw, anybody ever heard of kIRC? What's it like? 11:50am ghyll: I have put up a small s14-server ghyll: if you want source as well, I can probably open the right directory at the institute for you Fufie: I won't be able to look at it before by mid next-week. -:- SignOff rilel: #TUNES (Leaving) no prob Fufie: mail me the LRL :) done I am an avid mailer I've noticed :) jdl: here ? btw: there is a fun thread on comp.lang.scheme on whether programming in java is an indication of stupidity :-) yep, hi ghyll fufie: as a Java consultant I should offended but I don't think I really understand what you're saying ;) jdl: hi. http://www.teleport.com/~sphere/documents/001e/1/index.html <- first para, misspelling 'optomizers', unless I don't know what an 'optomizer' is.. ghyll: oh, oops, thanks jdl: np. (I finally have some free time to read up on Prism now :) jim: read the thread.. (I get paid for selling my sould to a company that has betted on Java :) gyhll: cool... I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say quote: > > > Regarding FP for the layperson: I think we might as well accept that > > > the Visual Basic and Java crowd will, by and large, never get it. > > > Please forgive my apparent elitism, but they just aren't that smart. 12:00pm * jdl/#tunes grins probably just too right ghyll: well, I've just discovered that I think "optimize" is spelled "optomize." Sigh... it's *everywhere* it should be spelled 'optimise' jdl: perl -npe 's/optomize/optimize/g' man ispell * Fare/#Tunes hides James bond on tv! fare: real programmers don't use spellcheckers seen'em all jdl: they use typecheckers instead? well i haven't -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES ([x]chat) fare: :) bineng: which one is that? fufie: american spelling using 'z', not that I care that much... "JB sees red", direct translation from Swedish jim: all the more reason to use 's' :-) bineng: what about the original title in english? Dunno :( bE: www.imdb.com 'from Russia with love' i sit good? s/i/is/ uh I haven't seen all of this one, but was ok -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-136.ici.net] has joined #tunes A LOT better bin: so do you want to discuss the glossary? jdl: http://www.teleport.com/~sphere/documents/002b/4/model.html jdl: first para, first sentence. is it a bit wrong ? 12:10pm * jdl/#tunes is checking g: okay, a bit :) s/in// :q (oops) * Downix/#tunes just heard about the 2600 fiasco at least it's still legal to link to a page carrying css-auth. Downix: what's that? not that I care too much. this is mainly a us problem for now.. jdl: I updated the web page jdl: same document. 'hexidecimal' should perhaps be 'hexadecimal' ? bin: cool, I'll take a look. bineng: The MPAA just made it illegal for 2600.com to have links to the DeCSS or CSS-auth, and will use this judges decision as evidence in their court hearing next week g: ok ic Shybll: Uh, this decision just made that illegal * Downix/#tunes finds this a nasty legal trick and a bad precident * Downix/#tunes orders a pamphlet, "So ya wanna move to Canada, eh?" downmix: not according to http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CoiFN0b8ZtJiXmJy3mdm0 * Fufie/#tunes thinks the US has gained a monopoly in many fields lately and should be split in three Referring to the fact that it's only on the 2600 web site,, yes but they can now use this precident to force the judge in next-weeks court case to do it completely Fufie: Well, as long as I'm not stuck with Arkansas the US has gotten so far ahead in major fields like military, lawyer-worshipping and not least; stupidity duh... is he insulting me? to preserve the competition, the best for everyone would be to split the US ;) * Downix/#tunes laughs fufie: okay, you can have half, and I'll take the other half * jdl/#tunes declares it so * Fufie/#tunes doesn't want any half 12:20pm * Fufie/#tunes gives his half to a small nunnery * Downix/#tunes takes his half, re-titles it "USA Inc." and hence declares all stupid people to be executed immediately. * Downix/#tunes re-titles himself Saint Dogbert Nah, I'll just export the stupid people as "quality rejects" in a series of discount stores across the world Right now I'm just seeing a dangerous precedent -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System || slate || binEng's glossary || dopl 12:30pm * Downix/#tunes is still amazed at how Linux has grown up * Ghyll/#tunes is amazed at how immature it is, nontheless ghyll: I agree, particularly the UI Hey, Corel Linux is a gigantic leap over my original experience with Linux.... but you are right, it has a long way to go -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-136.ici.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-136.ici.net] has joined #tunes * jdl/#tunes isn't trying to bash Linux - it is amazing for what it is - but there's a lot of work left to do oops Agreed jdl bin: you there? * Downix/#tunes dislikes X big-time for example * Ghyll/#tunes is more dissatisfied with the kernel. g: why not use *bsd then? jdl: I have a bsd box running too. oh, n/m then :) jdl: :) jdl: problem is mainly that I have various hardware stuff I want to toy with.. g: why is that a problem? the kernel is decent, not fantastic tho and they've been doing a lot of cleanup in it for the 2.3 kernel series bin: I looked at the new glossary... looks pretty good. But Linux is not the ideal system for me * Downix/#tunes has been hacking Linux to give him the functionality he wants bin: I think the next step may be to get someone not familiar with the concepts to critique it, identify things that don't make sense. ok bin: If it's okay with you, I'll link it from the Sphere home page. Is it okay to link your email address? bineng: give me the url, I have barely any comprehention of Tunes. 8) jdl: You can host it, as it more strictly relates to Prism now jdl: np with email bineng: get water to critique it ;) bin: cool, I'll do that today heh downix: http://www.tunes.org/~bineng/glossary.html (for now) thanks 12:40pm * Downix/#tunes just added to the /. effect, this time calling up the MPAA jdl: (sorry newslagged). freebsd doesn't have support for all the old and queer hardware I play with, so I have to stick to linux. g: ah jdl: 'have to' and 'have to'. I like have at PII-450 when compiling instead of a PPro-166 :) * jdl/#tunes is running Linux on a P-90 :) jdl: poor guy. I hate waiting for the computer.. * Fufie/#tunes should upgrade his processor one day Core services are great (PPP is noticably faster than Windows) but X/Gnome is *slow,* MUCH MUCH slower than Windows. And whenever intensive things are happening, the mouse pointer starts jumping around. I'm not impressed with the GUI at all. BSd is nice, if it supports you 12:50pm Hmm * Downix/#tunes keeps studying this design Linux *could* be turned into a very user-friendly system ok all, time to go * Downix/#tunes waves -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-136.ici.net] has left #tunes [] bye downix linux is user-friendly fufie: depends on what kind of user you are :) I am a novice Fufie: but it's selective about who it's user-friends are? 01:00pm not really Slartibartfast: Oh, yes. Did you ever go to a place - I think it was called Norway? Arthur Dent: No. No, I didn't. Slartibartfast: Pity. That was one of mine. Won an award, you know. :) heh 01:10pm -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-274.ici.net] has joined #tunes hoy 01:20pm nighty.. -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bar) bin: I've added the glossary to Sphere (linked from the main page). I modified the headers/footers to be consistent with the Sphere look, but otherwise no changes. New address is http://www.teleport.com/~sphere/001f/1/index.html 404 hmm bin: http://www.teleport.com/~sphere/documents/001f/1/index.html ah (sorry) jdl: I never added those new symbols to the glossary "language".. bin: I know... no biggie, it was mainly just a convenience for my comments I think some of them snuck into the published version, but that's okay, I labeled it "alpha" I can add it later, it's simple. 01:30pm well, that's it for me... have a great weekend everyone -:- SignOff jdl: #TUNES ((blue elf shot the food!)) let's see if /. accepts my recent article post * Downix/#tunes prays it does 01:40pm -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-274.ici.net] has left #tunes [] -:- craxy [mibin@62.11.104.11] has joined #tunes abi: dopl? dopl is, like, Dictionary of Programming Languages at http://cgibin.erols.com/ziring/cgi-bin/cep/cep.pl 01:50pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp182.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@200.255.108.100] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (Read error to Kaufmann`[200.255.108.100]: Connection reset by peer) -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@200.255.108.100] has joined #tunes Foo! baz quux oh well wha? you wanted a bar? not really -:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann`[200.255.108.100]) -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@200.255.108.100] has joined #tunes Kaufie! Farie! :P doesn't look quite as good faerie? heh Jack Fairy Fare: do you know of any especially informative papers on compiler optimization or books? 02:20pm hmm, seems not -:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (Read error to Kaufmann`[200.255.108.100]: Connection reset by peer) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn176.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@200.255.108.100] has joined #tunes eihrul: many eihrul: an (old) classic is the dragon book; I don't like it much; too much focus on parsing Fare: could you direct me to them, or as many as plausable? :) i have both dragon book an acd&i eihrul: you have the Andrew Appel book: compiling w/ continuations Fare: but some text specifically on optimizing dynamic languages would be nice -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes also a book edited by Peter Lee on Advanced Topics in Language Implementation or something like that any others? and of course, lots of papers by lots of teams; see conferences like POPL, ICFP, and more Fare: did rms reply to yer gpl email? thanks air: all there is to it is on the cybernethics archive eihrul: it's really in conference papers that you'll find what you want eihrul: lots of it on the web, at the authors' address Fare: k, i'll make sure to hunt around once i finish my other two books eihrul: any particular topic that interests you? -:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann`[200.255.108.100]) Fare: i'm just musing about implementing a lisp and am looking to collect various optimization techniques to make it ever faster 02:30pm Fare: papers on adaptive compilation are what i'm most interested in though i've already looked at many of the Self papers going to read... if you have any more resources /msg me with them so they get caught in the msg window (so i don't lose them in scrollback) 02:40pm i still dont see what this bug in the gpl is how does it hurt anyone if some company modifies gpl code for internal use and an employee takes it home if that employee gives it out on the net then everyone gets the mods the company made, just not the source. so what if that employee tries to sell it then sue his ass for not distributing gpl source fare? i heard fare was sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) or pronounced Fahree or a comp.sci student (for phd) air: that sod might be fired sod? so what if he gets fired s/sod/guy/ if he is fired he has lost his way of income -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-230-191.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes he shouldnt be taking home company shit heisann I think it was good that you pointed out that hole in gpl, fare there is no hole I discussed it with Per Bothner several weeks ago with regard to kawa which would the hole be? air: there is a big hole which allows companies to modify and keep gpl'ed code internal that is not a hole do you think rms intended it to be like that? yes I don't think so it would break with rms' philosophy to be able to make gpl code into a company program for internal use and not return the changes -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@200.255.108.100] has joined #tunes it is made quite clear in the gpl that u can modify the source and u only need to distribute it if u release the binaryt release the binary to whom? i have made changes to gpl'd software sometimes for personal uses without releasing it 02:50pm eihrul: adaptative compilation? eihrul: for that, you must first look at papers on continuous benchmarking them even eihrul: and/or stuff by the SELF crowd craxy: that is ok.. but what if you distribute this new version of yours to an organisation? To me, the employee should be protected by the gpl, too can't i consider myself a one-person organization =) ? he MUST have the right to distribute the code, and if the employer disagrees, the employee can sue his pants for GPL infringement u guys need to go read the gpl before u start emailing rms about holes Why would a man want to sue another's pants? Fare: no Am I missing something? if employees/contractors are not protected by the GPL, then an global organization that makes everyone a contractor can circumvent the whole GPL the company is a single entity and it was the one that changed the source and it can keep the source and binaries to itself if the GPL does not protect employees, then it doesn't enforce the liberties I'm fighting for. Kaufmann`: where is panty-suing a popular activity ? if the employee takes that source or binaries without permission then he should be fired air: that's the kind of corporate bullshit that's leading our world to oppression air: fired, maybe. Sued, not. air: and that's a BIGTIME difference Ghyll, ask Far� Fare: did u take home gpl source and got fired/sued? Ghyll: those who know won't tell you, even if they're free to do so :) air: not yet i suppose u want the gpl to allow employees to take home anything they want from the workplace right? "this computer had modified gpl source on it, im gonna take it home and hte gpl will protect me." "i sat on this chair while modifying gpl source so im gonna take it home too" ghyll: has anyone sued your panties? Fufie: not that I know of. Fare: u should go write a new license that allows i to sue an individual if s/he modifies source for personal use and doesnt distribute it s/i/u/ 03:00pm Fare: and make it quite clear that u can take everything they own if they dont distribute air, Far� could just rewrite the GPL to add that clause... Kaufmann`: he shouldnt do that cause there might be other BIG holes in the gpl that he could miss and it would screw him down the road he could then make a new version new versions is not something alien to the computer world * Ghyll/#tunes reads on -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bar) any of you people worked with the spider-part of cl-http or know of a good open source spider? wget is good 03:10pm ja, but a bit messy to update found a lot of fun stuff at www.acme.com -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (zz) -:- DragonByt [dragonbyte@ppp-208-18-66-119.wchtks.swbell.net] has joined #TUNES hello? hello is probably a multi-threaded operating system written in Standard ML and can be found at http://www.ics.hawaii.edu/~esb/prof/proj/hello/ whoa anyone here? no there is no "here" there isn't? "here" is merely an illusion created by the OpenProjectsNet services in conjunction with your IRC client oh, that explains a lot I have been pondering about at last...true enlightenment :) but how do you know what's the illusion and what's real? this is just a virtual here bineng: if its still there when you turn your computer off? how do I know shrug what exactly is TUNES? TUNES? somebody said TUNES was a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated or AOTA that mean OS in devel? :) 03:20pm DragonByt, not quite there are plenty of OSs in devel... but There Can Be Only One TUNES :) Kaufmann`: really dont know much bout this sorta thing but it sounds interesting abi, "here"? "here" is merely an illusion created by the OpenProjectsNet services ah Kaufmann`: what is it? from a certain perspective, it _can_ be thought of as an operating system... but we don't like to use the term, because it's been abused to the point of exhaustion. <--is kinda confuzed well try going to the URL and reading the FAQs... then the Glossary kaufie: those parts never really told the story for me.. I had to hang out here a long time before I understood the conspiracy Fufie, well, then maybe you'd like to explain TUNES to DragonByt... good luck :) I'll try.. correct me when I deviate :) drg: I suspect you're familiar with programming languages * bineng/#tunes sits back to listen -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250177.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes drg: a lot of us also think that making programming languages specific to our task is a good thing.. just like sql is for databases, logo is for guiding turles and fortran for transforming mathematical formulas into code this helps us express our programs in a fashion fitting for what we want to solve, which helps maintenance sql isn't that great sql sucks, but that is beside the point, now listen ;) pyro: shh TUNES kinda the one up on linux then? it's better than VB 03:30pm making these languages is hard and especially in an OS which doesn't help out the OS is usually not responsive at all.. just a sitting duck, with it's POSIX compliance and lousy libc.. it doesn't help out the distinction between OS and new languages is as a result rigid Fufie: ok...let see if i am getting this :) Fufie: The OS usually places barriers between random parts too, like RAM/disk but this sucks, because your app or language may need to change parts of how the OS behaves Fare: the idea here is that while your OS is running everything is fully configurable and the changes happen when to change it...not after restarting something or even rebooting? and my autocomplete name thingy just put the wrong name :P anyways...is that at least close? DragonByt: it happens to all of us.. -:- pyro_ [tcn@cci-209150250156.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes yes you seem to get it :) -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) windoze < linux < TUNES drg: yes :) Linux is pitiful in comparison It's a question about level of abstractio ntoo except it exists :) windoze < linux < TUNES < BRiX and the OS should help you to make better tools not.. just stand there looking dumb BRiX?? somebody said BRiX was the best way I like to think of TUNES as the most complete Emacs mode ever :) Retro < DOS air, how so...? pyro_: ha whatever Kaufmann`: that dont mean much to me...i dont know what Emacs is :) s/not../.. not/ Dragon, what OS do you currently use? Kaufmann`: linux :) Dragon, open a terminal, type emacs * Fufie/#tunes turns Beck louder DOS IS BOSS!!! =\ DragonByt: BRiX is smaller, faster and better than tunes and it exists the printer I bought today doesn't work with DOS; it's a winprinter. =((( air, if TUNES doesn't yet exist, how can BRiX be smaller than it? AlonzoTG: we dont care Kaufmann`: emacs a programming thing? Kaufmann`: good point, but if tunes ever exists then brix will be smaller air, what will you say if TUNES R1 turned out to take up only two lines of code? hehe it depends on their lenght DragonByt, Emacs is an operating system optimised for text editing. :) Kaufmann`: i would say damn good job :) DragonByt: emacs is a text editor program that runs on top of an OS drg: emacs is the programming editor of choice DragonByt, seriously, Emacs is the ultimate text editor. It was originally developed by RMS, which says a lot on its own. DragonByt: and it just happens to have plugins to do the tasks of every app out there within itself ok...so i take it its just used alot for programming drg: yes.. -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.133.213.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes DragonByt, Emacs was created to be completely and absurdly customizable. It comes with its own programming language, Emacs Lisp, which has almost all of the functionality of Common Lisp thrown in :) Hey abi, emacs? emacs is a victim of it's initial success or sounds like a great idea in theory, but the implementation sucks LOL kaufie: through cl-mode? ;) s/-mode// Fufie, heh 03:40pm so is BRiX reflective or whatever like TUNES? abi: you took the words right outta my mouth! (she's pretty intuitive for a dumb bot) you can tell a lot about the programmer of a mode whether or not he starts with (require 'cl) in emacs Fufie, LOL! so true lost me on that one :)