IRC log started Tue Jan 4 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0104 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1022.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us932.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us932.javanet.com]) -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp332.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn190.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn105.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn176.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (installing new modem) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn172.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn172.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- washort [washort@d141.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d141.narrowgate.net]) -:- washort [washort@d103.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes * Fufie/#tunes yawns -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d103.narrowgate.net]) -:- Mp5 [user7460@asy80.as61.sol.superonline.com] has joined #tunes türkçe bilen varmı? yokmu? 05:50am -:- Mp5 [user7460@asy80.as61.sol.superonline.com] has left #tunes [] -:- Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Urgh...) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-43.s43.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Your nick [TUNES] is owned by tunes@bespin.dhs.org -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES_ (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is carter.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from carter.openprojects.net) -:- carter.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(35)] 6% -:- [global users on irc(278)] 46% -:- [invisible users on irc(323)] 54% -:- [ircops on irc(17)] 3% -:- [total users on irc(601)] -:- [unknown connections(1)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 20 users per server) -:- [total channels created(194)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !carter.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 52 (51 clients) !carter.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 5 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES_ -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES_ -:- TUNES_ [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: || Meta Machine: -:- topic set by lar1 [Mon Jan 3 18:14:41 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:10)] [ TUNES_ ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ smoke ] [ Fufie ] [ zarq ] [@Tril ] [ smkl ] [ tmf ] [ abi ] [ TUNES ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: varley.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [08:05am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 9.167 secs!! [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com sterling.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Tril] by sterling.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from sterling.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com zsoldos.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from zsoldos.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net zsoldos.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com wang.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from wang.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net wang.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- AlonzoTG has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: The #tunes 1337n3$$ theorem: On any given day the discussion in this channel is more technical than that in any lecture hall at any university. * Fufie/#tunes puts on his glasses and searches for the discussions [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed doze (This nick is reserved by another user) * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug -:- washort [washort@d108.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com sterling.openprojects.net (Write error to sterling.openprojects.net[209.140.211.17], closing link) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: varley.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Tril] by sterling.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from sterling.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- pipiness [gigi@usl7-248-158.netsecure.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d108.narrowgate.net]) -:- washort [washort@d138.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes anyone here atm? hmm i am sort of smkl: Hi. i'm interested in findoing out about the TUNEs project more --- when are you guys most here? :) 10:10am hmm perhaps in few hours, varies very much reflective systems are soe of my favorite toys these days, and i want to find out which directions you guys are heading currently i've been doing a lot with Smalltalk, thouhg i've done a little Lisp, etc how does the TUNES design compare with the Lisp Machine/Smalltalk Machine design? i don't think we have a real design ah. heh :) i noticed on the website that there was some Lisp development going on, curious if you guys had looked at or thought about Smalltalk water uses smalltalk for arrow system ah... Arrow. hadn't looked at that yet 10:20am abi: xanadu? smkl: i don't know hmm there are two xanadues i think abi: xanadu is an imperative language with dependant type at http://www.ececs.uc.edu/~hwxi/Xanadu/Xanadu.html smalltalk? smalltalk is mostly crap, except for Squeak, that is good. hmmph ack lisp? rumour has it lisp is ((simply) (perfect)) abi: forget xanadu smkl: I forgot xanadu abi: xanadu is an imperative language with dependant types at http://www.ececs.uc.edu/~hwxi/Xanadu/Xanadu.html heh. :) squeak is fun. :) 10:30am squeak has a cool logo hehe for me, it's the most fun to program in. =) 10:40am [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lucas.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lucas.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lucas.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net lucas.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- iepos [iepos@d19.k1-2.tecinfo.com] has joined #TUNES -:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Leaving) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com zheng.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: asimov.openprojects.net zheng.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from zheng.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net zheng.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- iepos [iepos@d19.k1-2.tecinfo.com] has joined #TUNES anyone who know their CLOS and non-std method-combinations? 12:00pm -:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Read error to iepos[d19.k1-2.tecinfo.com]: EOF from client) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[207-172-49-43.s43.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-184-155.s155.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d138.narrowgate.net]) -:- washort [washort@d138.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed technoir (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d138.narrowgate.net]) abi: squeak? rumour has it squeak is a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars 'the open source mouse that roars' ? :)) 01:00pm oh dear an apple license -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us912.javanet.com] has joined #tunes om -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System 01:10pm -:- washort [washort@d140.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes washort: hey hcf: Hi. washort: check out arrow abi: arrow rumour has it arrow is a homo-iconic information manipulation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/ ok... * washort/#tunes starts up Squeak ok. does this do anything yet, or is it framework material? having looked at the tunes mailing lists it seemes there's little concrete stuff... water needs assistance if ur interested, plz email him 01:20pm hcf: ok. i don't understand what is *is*, exactly. i suppose i'm aiming low -- at this point i'd settle for a 100% Smalltalk (or Lisp) OS om =\ ToPiQuE? 01:30pm -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes works air over with a 2x4 -:- water [water@tnt-10-107.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes 'lo all * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations water!" :-) hoy washort hoy water dang nick 'pletion hey, i just spent about 20 hours learning latex The tunes 1347n3$$ theorem: At any given time there is more intellectual content expressed in this channel than in any university lecture hall. water: got a fetish? ;) i've chenged the original intro's title to "philosophy of arrow..." heh actually, i like Lyx, too :) that way, i don't have to commit to explaining everything in that document the format doesn't fit what all i have to add i'm also officially "endorsing" tril's approach sort of his ideas and mine intersect in a lot of areas, but i had neglected some issues that his spec addresses, so i'm going to combine our specs essentially water: hi. i've been reading the tunes list and your webpage about arrow -- wash: cool water: it seems like an interesting idea, but i don't think i grasp it fully... interesting set of ideas, i should say :) wash: you and everyone else heh. btw, i have to be brief now i willl be back later tonight for much longer 02:00pm as for the vm spec, i found some really appropriate formal papers on model theory which will help out considerably i'll let the list know tonight and fix the papers director on tunes.org water: did you have any papers about the arrow-system? i'll also be putting up some fixes and adding some small papers which will grow to about 15 pages a piece abi: tell Fufie about arrow anyway, now that i have a really good document system, i can focus on writing thanks.. I'll see if I can do a printout and be able to read it hcf: if you could get me some url's on model theory wrt signatures, particularly empty signatures, i'd really appreciate it water: k thx i've also been putting myself through a crash-course in linux and paper-writing * water/#tunes is done with news water: heres some urls i found a few days ago: http://www2.rz.hu-berlin.de/asg/blutner/afa/index.html (esp, lit and links (esp, Peter Aczel's hp) pages) http://www-diotima.math.upatras.gr/mirror/prncyb-l/0480.html http://pier.botik.ru/PSI/AIReC/logic/bst/bst.html http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~lizhang/Thesis/ http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/lego/ http://mizar.uw.bialystok.pl/JFM/ yikes k, thx -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d140.narrowgate.net]) om btw, i found out why my linux upgrade cuased my modem to stop working it's wierd.. it turns out that since i was using a sort of hack to get it to work before, the new install didn't register the settings but i had to re-partition and re-install, so i lost the config file, so i have to figure out how to get it to work again heh. hcf: why not email review@tunes.org about all your findings? 02:10pm hey fare Fare: fine btw fare, under partial-eval in the glossary, you mention Andrzej Filinski but don't hyperlink his homepage (with oodles of relevant papers) http://www.brics.dk/~andrzej/ he should at least be posted on review, perhaps for the reflection page and language page -:- lambda [cwz@cogeco-88-83.cgocable.net] has joined #tunes well, gotta go all hi lambda water: thanks np 02:20pm do you have a URL about Futamura projections? hm not that i recall heh. do you? http://futa00.futamura.info.waseda.ac.jp/intro.html this? not intro.html, just the site's main directory abi: futamura is at http://futa00.futamura.info.waseda.ac.jp darn, no good papers on line i'll have to check elsewhere lateer bye all -:- water [water@tnt-10-107.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (nighty night) 02:30pm -:- SignOff lambda: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.503 -- Accept no limitations) * zarq/#tunes is away: z -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.142.82] has joined #tunes abi: seen _ruiner_ _ruiner_ was last seen on IRC 1 days, 13 hours, 41 minutes and 0 seconds ago, saying: lar1: u should sleep now [Mon Jan 3 01:18:29 2000] 03:00pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp14.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff carlito: #TUNES (Leaving) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *beta@*.niagara.com, expiring at 947010580: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.104.81] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed cowboy (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) !is:*! any services admins awake ? !irq:*! <-- !^lilo:*! <-- ? !irq:*! yup, you're a services admin too, lilo :) !is:*! nm lilo :> -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) !ChanServ:*! ^lilo used GETPASS on channel #tnflesh -:- lar1 [Larman@dialup-209.245.133.6.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey hey Get yer timer thing worked out? yup Cool. Were you right? sorta :) i said "cmp |x-c|,|n-c|" but i didnt need to minus c from n cuz i had that value already 04:30pm You were pretty close the expression was correct i just optimized it :) Do you use the profiling registers? I think there is one that counts the amount of uptime... eh? You arnet familiar with profiling registers? I found out aobout them on borg I will send you the document the TSC register counts uptime but it can be cleared i use the TSC to get the mhz for pentium+ but i cant rely on it cuz 486's dont have it [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Zagreus (This nick is reserved by another user) Hmm, nevermind... there is one for instructions executed but not uptime the TSC can be used to count uptime its a 64bit register Is info on borg? info for? 04:40pm the TSC pentium dev manual its a 4meg pdf file on developer.intel.com Ok only problem is that tsc counts in cpu cycles Hmm so it would take more cycles to compare a value to it then it would to maintain a 64bit software counter What happens when your uptime counter rolls over? Do you start from 0 or add to another counter? my uptime counter wont roll over Uhh on a 500mhz cpu tsc will roll over in 1100 years, my counter ticks at 10ms I thoguht you didn't use the tsc and that your counter ticks at 1 ms mine will roll over in 5.8 billion years 04:50pm but i use a 2 part counter for speed timers can only be 32bit values at 10ms intervals so they can go for 497 days i only compare the bottom 32bits of the uptime counter to timers and that i why i had to deal with overflow s/i why/is why/ Ah Why the hell do you have such a big times... 5.8 billion years?! i have to otherwise the counter would overflow after 496 days of uptime make timers 64 bit values m$ can get away with a counter that overflows after 497 days cuz they dont expect the OS to be up that long well if u need a thread to sleep for more than 497 days u can hack around the 32bit timer air: you're not Y6G compliant!!! just create a thread that puts itself to sleep and when it wakes up it puts itself to sleep again and again until it wants to resume the thread u want to sleep for longer than 497 days what was that RFC on Y10K compliance and beyond, already? air: what a sleepy thread Fare: that it for uptime Fare: and if brix is being used 6 billion years from now then they can sue my dead ass for not making it Y6G compliant :) I like ipmasq... moreso that it works now :) ha ha? You have a better way to sare an internet connection? ya, ip subnet Hmmph! Thats money money money 05:00pm no it aint only $5/mo/ip How much for 10 IPs? From who? aros.net Why pay $5/mo if you can pay $0/mp? static ips are better than ipmasq For what reason? can u run 2 web servers(2 comps) on the same port? Better question Whould you want to run 2 web servers on 2 comps on teh same port heh i do air: serving different dirs? Uhh, its called being cheap mibin: duh air: nfs... duh air: Mount the remote drive, and serve both dirs from the same computer air: dah why would i want to serve the same dir on 2 comps? i dont need to mirror anything here I didn't suguest doing that air: Mount the remote drive, and serve both dirs from the same nm Heh :) besides windows doesnt have nfs smb then smb has holes plus samba dont work with win98] Whatever... you could always move the other directory so they are on the same drive... smb doesn't work with 98?!? smb is not samba 05:10pm samba is smb Fine Why does samba not work with 98? well win95 can log into a samba server with password but 98 cant That... uh... sucks I need samba and I just went to 98 -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.142.90] has joined #tunes abi: seen _ruiner_ _ruiner_ was last seen on IRC 1 days, 15 hours, 57 minutes and 20 seconds ago, saying: lar1: u should sleep now [Mon Jan 3 01:18:29 2000] carlito: could u please stop that abi: seen abi I haven't seen 'abi', eihrul 05:20pm air: you don't like it? does it bug you that much, that I come in hear once or twice a day, and fill up the screen with a couple of lines? I'll do it somewhere else from now on It's not 95, it's Y2K-5 and the very name is not Y2K compliant 05:30pm carlito: You can msg abi 05:40pm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net 05:40pm air: THere is no way in hell you can run a 1Kw auio amp off of 14v @ 6Amps, right? You need at _least_ 1Kw in to get 1Kw out, no? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us204.javanet.com] has joined #tunes lar1: I suppose so. but maybe the 1Kw is computed as some kind of "effective power" of some sort on a skewed scale btw, it's KW, not Kw or even kW Fare: What do you mean skewed scale? 05:50pm something like "oh, it's not really 1 kW, but considering the frequency range and the limited scope, it has the same perceived effect as a 1 kW device would have at different frequency and emitting in all directions" now, a 12-fold factor seems a lot to me, anyway. Hmmm... cause my friend just bought a "1KW" amp and it had those power stats on it... he says well there is more to that equation... its possible... heh! He has no clue whas hes talking about [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed ReivaX (This nick is reserved by another user) Fare: are there any non-defunct lisp os projects? many, I think from the MzScheme on top of OS-kit, to many others (should be listed on the OS page) 06:00pm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: fontana.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from fontana.openprojects.net [06:00pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: fontana.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: fontana.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net fontana.openprojects.net -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn176.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from merril.openprojects.net. 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Fare: i only see one vague reference to LispOS on OS review subproject [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: tolkien.openprojects.net fontana.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [06:07pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (main(){fork();main();}) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn176.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from merril.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: varley.openprojects.net fontana.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from fontana.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net fontana.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. !lilo:*! hmmmm, nice, 701 clients on the servers !spice_urk:*! is that a new high ? 06:10pm bad bad bad !^lilo:*! probably not !^lilo:*! but it's fairly high for us, until it becomes the new standard ;) eihrul: there is a family of scheme os projects out there eihrul, fare: Alert core yup have any links? abi: funos? i think funos is at http://www.sarg.ryerson.ca/funos/ or a mostly-functional os, written in scheme !lilo:*! Hi all. Remember that as our user base increases, each of us should try to help newbies understand how the community works. Think friendly. :) abi: schema? hmmm... schema is a scheme os at http://www.fredbox.com/~james/schema/index.html !lilo:*! Also, please check in #openprojects if you're a fairly solid sockets programmer and you'd like to work on a successor to ircd :) abi: ocelot? i think ocelot is a scheme unix os project at http://www.sonic.net/~bear/scheme/ocelot.htm abi: nasos? hmmm... nasos is Not Another Scheme OS at http://www.noontide.demon.co.uk/nasos/notes.html [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: fontana.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from verne.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. hcf: do you remember all the names, or do you take them from another factoid? * Fare/#tunes had ocelot and funos buried in pointer list Fare: irc/1999.1217 hcf: oh Fare: u probly dismissed the rest "Everything was said. But nobody listens." they all appear to be wishlists 06:20pm -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-9.ici.net] has joined #tunes hoy Downix hoy Hey Downix! -:- washort [washort@d101.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes what's up? * lar1/#tunes is working on raven * washort/#tunes is just along for the ride what's raven? RavenOS, my operating system project cool 06:30pm Is there a perticulary cool fs for floppys? If I can't find somthing else I will just use FAT12 FAT is most common, i think, or minix lar1: I use minix myself Yea, it seems like the bigger caliber fses waste more space on such a small medium *nod* hmm Well, they need to replace the floppy anyways eh? then what will we all do with our old floppies? Standards are not easily forsaken eihrul: make coasters but what if there's stuff in them? they'll be interesting coasters. :) I still use old things seriously, though, the LS120 drive supports 1440k floppies as well as 120MB flopticals. True, those are nifty * washort/#tunes still uses floppies... primarily for booting Are they IDE? i think so How does the 120 MB floppy work? 120MB floppies are dumb. Don't get crooked at buying them. Buy IDE racks instead. IDE racks? you guys are affecting my brain i'm losing interest in "normal" languages/OSes :) Heh 06:40pm i've been reading about Oberon and Dylan.... i just realized how boring they actually are :) yes too few parentheses heh! actaully, i prefer Smalltalk... but Lisp is good too. :) the thing that bothered me was that Oberon is supposed yo be this spiffy language/OS combination.... but the smallest unit of compilation is the module... and the debugger is nowhere near as good as it should be hmm debuggers can improve and modules aren't exactly earth shattering (though nice) (in fact i never found the debugger) -:- lar1 is now known as lar_eating what's wrong with printf (), (format), etc? eihrul: i'm used to the Smalltalk model - smallest unit of compilation is the method (or procedure, or function, whatever) and you can recompile running code... and the debugger is for fixing things, not autopsying things. :) can't have a method without an object.... I feel completely lost so its superficial right or virtual eihrul: not really - eihrul: in Smalltalk you can run a program and when it encounters an error (say, a typo)... eihrul: it pops up a debugger and you can correct the typo, recompile the method, and proceed 06:50pm without restarting the program and losing its state * eihrul/#tunes sighs. i was talking about being the method being the smallest unit of compilation can't do that in oberon, all you get is a stack trace shrug, oberon could probably be made to do that eihrul: perhaps i'm not saying it right (playing devil's advocate here) heh :) and even so, a debugger alone is not a sufficient reason to use a language IIRC, lisp systems allow the same type of development style, although i haven't had the chance to play with a good one... the language could be really horrible... but still have a nice debugger eihrul: no, it's not hmm eihrul: right * Downix/#tunes has yet to find a language he can fully understand eihrul: smalltalk is similar to lisp in that there is very little "language" there and it's all in the classes/functions * washort/#tunes hands Downix GW-BASIC eihrul: so it's what you make of it, i suppose.... :) BASIC? eww washort: cept, lisp is better :) I'm growing to like LISP Common and EMACS both eihrul: I won't argue. :) * Downix/#tunes needs lar1 now eihrul: I've yet to find a good Lisp environment though. :) * washort/#tunes is saving his pennies for a MacIvory eihrul: have you seen Squeak? 07:00pm yes * Fare/#tunes committed lispos changes to the OS page do you know of a comparable system in Lisp? i'd love to play with something like that... (propagated to CVS, not to WWW yet) oops, genera entry missing yeah, genera's the only one i've heard of in that vein... i'm saving my pennies :) hmm LispOS? Isn't that EMACS? lol that's EmacsLispOS [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *DBB@*.splitrock.net, expiring at 947023095: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. lol 07:10pm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from clarke.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. everybody sez emacs is an OS... but it's too limited :) Well, it could be IF someone built it right [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed gonadman (This nick is reserved by another user) well.... there's the mutty ppl who hooked emacs up to the MIT exokernel... :) 07:30pm s/mutty/nutty/ i kant type :) -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Leggo my Eggo!) agg, really? washort: since when did limitation define an OS? MS-DOS is limited, but it's still an OS s/define an OS/define OSness/ Fare: well, hardware interfce generally is a defining feature of OSes. Fare: unless you count the exokernel stuff emacs isn't an OS. :) ...and if you do, then their webserver hooked up in a similar way is an OS too. ;) I don't think hw interface is a defining feature of an OS. Windows 3.x is an example. or even every OS that run on the Alpha, since they use the firmware for lots of stuff. or CP/M and MSDOS, that used an underlying BIOS. or VM/CMS that run in virtual machines. 07:40pm well, to go to the vaguest definition, the OS is the piece of software at the bottom. :) i know many ppl were quite strenuous in poinitng out that Win3.x wasn't an OS, just an OE -- and in the case of VM/CMS, one could argue that the VM provided virtual hardware and CMS had a virtual hardware interface... :) washort: at the bottom? There's nuclear physics. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Verti (This nick is reserved by another user) my point is, emacs isn't the piece of software at the bottom of the pile in any situation i can think of. and/or God's ultimate quantum-relativistic mechanics simulator. yes,true. :) in that case, is X an OS? ;) I've discussed my opinions on the right definition for "OS" in the finished part of my WhyNewOS paper URL? papers/WhyNewOS/ 'k 07:50pm abi: WhyNewOS is Faré's "Why a New OS" paper at http://tunes.org/papers/WhyNewOS/ most people don't use "just X" as an OS, although some might. ah, ok... abi: whynewos is also answers the question "what is an OS", too okay, Fare. you're treating user-interface/avaiable tools as the OS i was appraoching it from the hardwre end, not the user end. interesting. :) the hardware is a moving and irrelevant target. At a certain level, yes. :) the important point is the interface. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. i'm coming to believe that more these days... -:- water [water@tnt-9-246.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi (hic) :) (drunk?) a little, yes (make-sober :person water) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed khemicals (GHOST command used by skhemical) after all the time i spent working to learn the intricacies of latex and linux, i needed to unwind a bit i can still discuss some good issues, but just keep it in mind [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) water: what's a good wine to get drunk with? hm. abi: self? i guess self is a prototype-based object system, at http://self.sunlabs.com/ i prefer a good red like Chianti or Merlot water: do you know people having studied integration of linear logic into computer languages? wish they'd port that to a cheap architecture.... :) I'm more interested in languages with recursive notions of "domains" or "regions", etc fare: i know i've seen a web page on it, but i don't quite recall where it was any hint for a web search? 08:00pm not right now, but my memory is definitely clouded the *real* indicator of a good wine, by vinery and year, still eludes me. the best i can say for now is to judge by price (since i'm only 22) sometimes, a pinot noir actually provides quite a good feeling I'll ask my brother. He knows quite a bit about wine (a professional habit, since he works in the Bond Market) good idea [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. * water/#tunes is listening to The Cult's greatist hits 08:10pm * Fare/#tunes launches Rachmaninoff by Rachmaninoff (maybe too late for that) hey, rachmaninoff rocks [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) :) too bad he's dead yeah -:- SignOff lar_eating: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar_eating[dialup-209.245.133.6.SanJose1.Level3.net]) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed e-t (GHOST command used by eliot) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-184-155.s155.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed doogie (This nick is reserved by another user) water: http://www.enseignement.polytechnique.fr/profs/informatique/Didier.Remy/htmlman/node4.html http://osprey.unisa.ac.za/manuals/cadiz/standard.html http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~lamsh/SENG/609.03/class_sum.html http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/publications/lfcsreps/EXPORT/90/ECS-LFCS-90-106/index.html uh thx :) hcf: what's in all that, briefly? "the module system of ocaml"?!? basically hits for model, theory, signature* oh yeah... "signatures" * water/#tunes slaps himself * Fare/#tunes learns the joys of cd ripping i should've reallized hits like this would come up 08:20pm abi: cmucl? cmucl is the free optimizing CommonLISP compiler originated at the CMU SPICE project or nice but it hasn't really been maintained for four or five years eih: /msg :) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Keeper (This nick is reserved by another user) abi: tell me about cmucl works too ;) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net om [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. gah i have carpal tunnel, /msg hurts yer keyboard sucks and yer using QUERTY so shut your trap. =P BOOKS: Where can I get them? * washort/#tunes is using a non-sucky QWERTY keyboard. :) atg: BOOKSTORES I need books on prolog and this "Algebraic programming" if it eggzists. heh try amazon what would one do with a book on prolog...? I was using Phatbraine... whatever What would one do with a book on any other subjeckt. i mean, it's not a big language. ;) AlonzoTG: hmm... doorstop? * washort/#tunes ducks lol [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) what can be said for prolog: what it can do, it does quickly that's about it prolog is nifty mercury is niftier :) abi: tell AlonzoTG about mercury [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net 08:30pm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- SignOff carlito: #TUNES (Leaving) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Read error to eihrul[usr5-ppp14.lvdi.net]: Connection reset by peer) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) ? wow. tmf is here and i didn't notice is he really here? or rather, he's away om =\ [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed e-t (GHOST command used by eliot) Okay looks like I have run out of books that can really teach me gnu things so I'll just hafto start digging into the papers =0 [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. heh 09:00pm hmm... [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) * AlonzoTG/#tunes was wondering where he could go to get a nice refresher on MetaMathematicks... lol one of those "well-established" theoories, of course :) you just need goedel's and church's etc work or what? In my diskreet math class last summer I learnt about this field of "metamathematics" which included godel's work but also covered such subjects as the validity of mathematic method and such... * Fare/#tunes goto 3053 -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) mmm.... Gödel.... yes godel was mentioned in that class too. abi: tell washort about agt I need to learn about godel numbering some more too. hehe Abi is silent. al: she /msg's al: dover publishes some good cheap books on all sorts of math theories al: i happen to have a book or two with godel's famous work in them by dover that's.... interesting. hehe i thought you would find it so :) 09:10pm om i'm still reading it i'd say that i grok about 70% by now not that it's hard to understand, but there are some funky issues with axiomatizability that i'm working with -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes Combinatorics < WUZZIS?????? lol combinatorics applied to *what*? [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. 09:20pm combinatorics is the study of a subject in terms of finite elements and a finite set of operators k usually used for graph theory or topology or (by extension) finite-state machines gotchya. thanks. and fsm's are good for programming theory np damn these terms, they're tuffer than the maf they describe, not to say that doesn't give me a stroke. yes I have looked at them and I can see how they can assist in program design. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. combinatorics as a math theory is *not* easy to grok mostly because it doesn't cover a specific theory or domain Well you have a grok factor of 10.1 lol yeah sure hey, I'm down in the 2.4-3 range... heh. don't kick yourself so hard; it might hurt I am thinking of CAM type architectures... The Cortex of the braine appears to have many CAM charactoristics. er... refresh me, what's cam? Cellular Automata. oh brain cortex: uhh sure Well you don't have a coppy of the "Cerebral Code" do you? =P yeah, and i haven't read "geb" either :P and i continue to refuse to read that crap Anyway. part of what makes the brain so fast and CAM not so is that things have to propogate across a CAM slowly while the brain has sort of "wormholes" where certain areas can communicate with remote regions of the cortex. lol I suppose that would fall under a study of "topology" ? you have to invoke a "wormhole" to make your hyposthesis work?!? =\ Now *you* are getting silly! 09:30pm I got this from the book! well, the wormhole requirement means the cam topology DOESN'T apply well not exactly a wormhole... wormhole... loophole, same difference Just a method for coppying a pattern from one location in the brain to a remote location without having to propogate across all the intermediate portions... it's a nice ontology :) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-9.ici.net] has joined #tunes Like immagine a sheet of paper was your brain and you wanted to get a signal from A to a sufficiently remote B Yeah ontologys were the next thing I wanted to bug you about. but like all ontologies, it's not *right*, it's only useful within the range of interpretation not requiring loopholes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) You could wait for it to propogate or you could create a region near A that was linked to a region near B.... al: which makes it something other than a cam eggzacktlie! al: since it affects the TOPOLOGY so, the CAM hhypothesis is bunk yes. that's what I am looking at now... to try to develop a gnu model that represents things more accurately. lol what about the model would qualify it as "gnu"? well I'll create it first and then let you decide. ;) you'd better go find some people who work with the problems more closely i work with high-level stuff in the brain not low-level [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. om Okay What do you suggest as a good "Ambitious Moron's" guide to topology? heh what kind of topology? =\ i would recommend dover books off the top of my head okay. honestly you know what kind of publisher they are, right? [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) 09:40pm nope wait, I think I might have one or two from them... they republish math and science and nature texts that prove to be foundational or well-written or good for learning from wow! most of these topology books at amazon are less than $10!!!!!!! It's a miricle!!!! exactly dover happens to be very cheap Why do I suddenly get extremely tired whenever I read anything about quantum or wave phenomena? heh why are you asking *me*? you are god. you know everything. heh. in that case, the answer is "you are a low-life. you know nothing." :) -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us1017.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us204.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf i.e. if you have to ask, you don't deserve to know om =( [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed hal-jason (GHOST command used by hhfhfhf) * water/#tunes pulls out his magical syringe of inquisitive spirit and sticks AlonzoTG with it. Is it just me or does nobody in here have a lyfe? what? 09:50pm AlonzoTG: Yes. it's just you. yes, i have to agree there I think I need to get a lyfe to recharge my spirit. =\ Damnit, people I've never even ever been on a date and I'm 22 =\ that's not so bad AlonzoTG: it's not, really.... i'm 18, same situation. :) heh well I need a job that doesn't work me 11 hours a day 6 days a week. on the other hand, i'll readily admit to being too focussed on my ideas to have a girlfriend even though i do date atg: or an IRC habit? :) i'm not an adict I'm not I'm not! =P yeah, yeah, you can quit any time.... yeah I think you're right about that. we've hear it before. :) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp83.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes eihrul: What is your 1337ness factor today? 1337? leet elite script kiddie speak for elite oh i missed that whole phase completely, it seems eihrul has been learning lisp and now I fear him. isn't it ph33r? :) be glad i'm not learning intercal Ph34R I tricked you. eihrul: good for you oh LISP is kewl * Downix/#tunes is learning it yeah one of my friends dared me to program an OS in intercal. I dare you to program an OS, period heh. write one in befunge :) * eihrul/#tunes found quines in intercal... "ph33r" I read through a book on it but I need to read it again and get a working implementation to experament with. eihrul: eeeyow 100KB of source code just to print itself out... lol hmm, where did i stash the url... look at the quine on smalltalk 10:00pm n/m i thought it was different there's one language where it's trivial, i forget which http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@*.telusplanet.net, expiring at 947033770: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. whole bunch of them... no, i mean where it's one command http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal/quine.html ftp://ftp.muppetlabs.com/pub/intercal/quine.i water: you forgot a language that can quine itself with one directive? yeah :( the assembly quine is smaller than the intercal quine... heh in FORTH it's something like : ME S" SEE ME" EVALUATE ; hmm yeah forth is pretty damn good at the quine squeak has a decompiler.... i wonder if you could use that to effect a quine. :) * washort/#tunes checks Washort: Are you *sure* you are 18? heh AlonzoTG: hmm. i don't think my parents would lie to me When I was your age I was disobeying my professors by writing things in C instead of C++ because C was simpler and less kludgy. AlonzoTG: hehe AlonzoTG: good idea :) AlonzoTG: remind them that all C programs are C++ programs. :) * washort/#tunes looks at the postscript quine Hmm.. What was that language that Fare said was turing complete? Was it Forth or Lisp? AlonzoTG: both. :) forth water: have you seen the ~800b raytracer? water: written in PostScript? but forth handles i/o and such in ways lisp doesn't do well at all washort: really? cool water: wanna see? :) Interesting. here's a good quine ["'[,34,$!34,'],!"]'[,34,$!34,'],! hehe that's written in False oh. heh :) tmf would be proud tmf? tmf is an imposter. real santa(Copyright Coca-Cola Company) is from finland So the question becomes what is wrong with all the other languages? lol, abi lol is Laughing Out Loud abi shut up 10:10pm and of course, you can do it in perl real easy (if you cheat) open+0;print<0> I don't think I understand this fully yet. AlonzoTG: what do you mean what's wrong with them? multiple languages are good. :) Why aren't they "turing complete"? AlonzoTG: all programming languages are turing complete this ps code looks pretty good With C I have to do tons of ugly shit to get the exact precice data structures I want, I might as well use assembly =\ AlonzoTG: if it's not turing complete, it's arguably not a progamming language AlonzoTG: *nod* C is ugly... hmm, bash: could almost be a quine :) washort: actually, a few aren't quite turing-complete for instance, some macro languages water: *nod* water: but they're not considered "programming" languages by most certain macro languages that don't like division algorithms... Okay. I gather that the test of turing compl33tness is the ability to specify or emulate a turing machine that is already known to be universal? AlonzoTG: that's the theoretical description AlonzoTG: basically, it just needs arithmetic, branching and iteration *emulate* to be specific plus some other stuff i might have forgotten... yeah, the "some other stuff" is the important stuff AlonzoTG: brainf*** is turing complete, IIRC. water: refresh my memory heh. so is raw binary water: but that's a medium, not a language. :) washort: wish it were so simple Well that would depend on wheather the machine can interprit that langugae language=medium in my book hmm. i.e. cybernetics Well a Virtual machine such as a the Forth virtual machine is known to be universal... And the Register machine is known to be universal... anyway. water: well, then if the language is the medium... what is ASCII to C/Lisp/whatever? I need to leap into bed... water: if it's not the medium what would you call it? Okay here are two tests for compleetness: a language being the medium is a relative thing Is the virtual machine universal? Is the language that operates that machine able to express, in a finite number of stepps, any state of that machine? is *what* vm universal? Well anything you specify... water: the one that executes a language... Or the logical arangement of the machine on which your program runs wheather it be implemented in hardware or another program. the vm for a language is supposed to encapsulate the language precisely Well there is the state space for the machine and then there is the language that the machine understands... one is physical or nounal and the other is verbal. btw, define "universal" water: i think he meant "is it a universal TM?" So you can argue that they are two different things. you're getting vague 10:20pm =( I need sleap. -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (/me leeps into bed.) btw, lambda-calc=utm darn *nod* a simple formalism i wonder -- is there something that is to imperative languages as the the lambda calculus is to functional languages? a fundamental building block? a simple formalism. nothing formal that i recall that's what I thought. imperative languages are famous for being difficult to formalize correctly i guess there's Cardelli's sigma object calculus, but it's not quite the same... water: right... maybe the pascal vm hehe, here's a program to print "99 Bottles Of Beer On The Wall" written in CLOS. interesting. :) oh you found that page, did you? yeah. hadn't seen the CLOS one before. is it short? Hmm. what's 'short' for CLOS? :) 74 lines? :) yeah i guess the Common Lisp version farther down is 12 lines. :) (writing a 99 bottles of beer on the wall program with eight methods in four classes is silly. :) 10:30pm say, have you looked at arrow yet? water: yes. water: i can't say I understand it. :) hm. oh well i'll get those new papers out soon that one paper online that i have was written while i was on an aircraft carrier in the persian gulf i sort-of understand the general concept, i think... basically the goal is a system where programming and using the system are the same act, correct? heh. i'm probably the first person ever to install linux on a warship at sea at least that i mean, that can't be done in all cases, so there have to be ways to prevent stratification which is why i went to the trouble of making a system philosophy where information is the center of attention *nod* unfortunately, the work i've done (unpublished) suggests that this thing will be a great info-tool... and a weapon hm? how do you mean? well the goal is to make a network of information with domains as nodes *nod* like the www within a semantic space... the links (and meta-links) are ontologies unfortunately, a good picture of this web requires understanding that many ontologies reflect on the system or its parts, resulting in something more complicated than a simple web as for the weapon bit, it makes info-gathering and management much easier well, all technological advances do that 10:40pm sure, but clumsily this one can configure itself (potentially) to plug itself into domains unforseen by the users because it has a framework for understanding and manipulating itself that is not limited to one coherent model well, this is the idea, anyway water: how doable do you think that it is? i'm not sure just exactly what can be done within this framework i'm still working on formalizing the system completely or at least enough of it to develop the complete system from I assume you're familiar with the Xanadu work. what do you think of it? yes, it's interesting but lame they focus too much on natural-language documents which are inherently very difficult for computer systems to understand and therefore manipulate the information in them is hard (or impossible) to extract in general water: right. the thing that concerns me about projects like this is that is seems "too big" to implement... what steps will you be making toward implementation? mostly for now i concentrate on a small program that works with arrows, graphs, and frames in a way that demonstrates almost all of the paper's discussion *nod* from the beginning i have been developing plans for "libraries" for this kernel to have to be useful... not a daunting prospect at all -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error: 2.71828182846 (Excessive e)) but it requires a deep math understanding to get the libraries right not just programming skill well -- i don't have too much of either. :) i'll do most of that by default, but i'll enjoy it for it's aesthetic aspect heh well, you must have some understanding of cs theory 10:50pm i mean, you seem to understand quite a bit for someone who's 18 are you still in high-school? No. i'm a junior in college I program for fun. oh... i was in that position about 3 yrs ago i dropped out because of my ideas i'm probably going to end up getting a job as a sysadmin or something well - i'm doing it for the little piece of paper that says i've been thru the wringer. it's actually much more complicated than that, but oh well can't say i'm learning a whole lot in the classes, but it's nice to have access to a college library, and college computers... i believe that that piece of paper would have cost me too much personally well - it's a credibility thing but credibility from whom? i couldn't have gotten a Real Job when i started school, so school was the most sensible option for me don't get me wrong... when i get out, i'm applying to mit again water: why, the school of course. ;) don't you think they're oh-so-qualified to judge my competency? :) what's a real job? one that makes enough money to live on. i make enough money to live on water: i'm not saying you made a wrong choice, or that college is for everyone (heck, i don't believe school is for everyone) just explaining why *i'm* doing it. :) k have you read the /. article about the attempt to draft a serial i/o computer bus architecture? no. very interesting... the network is the computer :) yay, let's go stage a coup at Sun. :) with the exception of the cpu-to-main-memory interfaces and the systems that manage consistency for i/o processes heh. sun's actually involved mostly intel and hp, though 11:00pm the big debate is open-standard vs proprietary oh, naturally anyway, they want to connect devices with a packet/stream protocol over a dynamnically-configurable network of devices via copper or fiber-optic heh, slashdot's QOTD is rather apropos :) "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. " heh the /. article is from a few days ago well, i thought it would make tunes that much more applicable to the future of computing since it's supposed to systematically support distributed computations *nod* it looks interesting btw, arrow=tunes i have a hard time visualizing the future effects of hardware like that it isn't obvious though water: yes, i grokked that from the mailing list i'm an "aim low" kind of guy atm, i think -- i want to bring computing up to 80's standards before we launch off into the 00's. :) heh * washort/#tunes holds up _The UNIX-Haters' Handbook_ you think NeXTStep will be cool eventually, then? bring back the LispM. :) hm water: well, that's a baby step in the right direction. :) the GNUStep ppl are doing a good job er... kinda right. Not really. :) it's still unix, still edit-compile-debug i was thinking more along the lines of getting some super compiler technology into squeak and putting some real-wrold apps into it yeah jitter3 should help a bit like a TeX level document system that would be nice. it's got PS support, after a fashion, now, so... :) the first thing i thought when i saw "LyX" was... "Squeak should be doing this" Yeah. either of u know anything about aerodynamics? yes! of course i met LyX long before Squeak air: yeah, it hold planes up and stuff. :) seriously, i *really* know aerospace eng. and related stuff 11:10pm u know any formulas? yuck... aerospace formulas? i need to know the lift of blades maybe for incompressible *ideal* fluids otherwise, you really need a handbook or a computer system for fluid dynamics why the hell do you need to know that? like how much more lift a 1.5" wide 36" diameter blade would have over an 8.5" diameter 3/4" wide blade oh, *model* aerodynamics very stiff blade or plastic? carbon fiber k well, at that scale most of your differences due to scale are linear are the blades cambered much? cambered? heh curved assymetrically they are semetrical ugh oh, then just take the areas' ratio that will give you a rough ratio of their lift ratios ok so the bigger blades have a fuck load more lift keep in mind, it's a *rough* estimate roughyl :) of course well, it depends on a lot of things, really the area that the blades cover or the area of the blades? huh? what's the difference? -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) oh the blades what's this for, anyway? you have R/C helicopters or something? well im building an rc model k but its unique heh * water/#tunes thinks... it'll crash it uses 4 helicoptor tail rotors oh like very very old helicopters i.e. 1920-era copters 2 companies make something like it but they use 4 motors. mine will use an engine anyway... imagine an X with a rotor on each point facing up yeah.. it was done in the '20s or goto www.afot.com or www.draganfly.com well, anyway, it would be very good for Squeak to have a document-formatting system thanks for yer help with styles and dtd's and such air: np 11:20pm air: btw, the blade chord affects flight performance, as well as rotor tip speed... you really should read a little eh? n/m im not making the blades they cost $30 each yeah but you choose the blades the motor based ones have wood blades that u have to sand to make the tips smooth to get better performance heh mine come ready to fly and also cost 4 times as much is it really that hard to get small R/C helicopter blades? no, 8 times there is a huge selection of blades the motor based blades are kinda like what prop planes use, one piece im using 2pc blades cuz they have pitch control so why not stop and study the differences before you buy an expensive set of blades? im also buying 4 $200 helicoptor kits and throwing away 75% of the helicoptor just to get the tail assembly umm... * water/#tunes thinks... this is gonna crash. to buy just the parts for the tail cost MORE than the damn kit but i might be able to sell some of the parts on ebay without tail rotors?!? ya ppl need parts after they crash i wanna see this "yeah, i'll buy an rc 'copter kit without tail rotors" the rotor heads will get sold the main rotor blades, WILL get sold tail rotors survive crashes? no tail rotors and main rotors break the most so they'll buy the rest of the kit for spare parts ok u can also break the rotor head which is expensive i might be able to sell off the parts for $150 per kit * water/#tunes thinks _QZ's helicopter will have more control problems than he's willing to put up with. no it wont why not? i know exactly what controls need to take place and have the EE degree to build the controller so? that doesn't mean it'll be useful it will be as useful as any other rc model 11:30pm especially with the camera on it then again, i've never found helicopters particularly user-friendly ok to make the rotors spin faster to get more lift do i want more torque or more hp? mostly torque you obviously need the hp, but the torque curve is steeper u know any formulas to calculate torque? there are entire handbooks just for R/C helicopter design GET ONE i can't believe i'm telling air to rtfm heh should i change my nick to "earth", or "fire"? when i was in high school, i read r/c modeller and such, there were always at least a dozen articles per year on design and formulas and such ya ya i have rc modeller hickserv already uses "fire" get a *book* on it i also have physics books with all this shit but i cant read nah.. straight physics doesn't give you the practical numbers it gives me formulas to calculate torque you need to know what rotor speed, chord length, blade thickness, rotor diameter, etc mmpf. i think it's bedtime been fun guys, cya later -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (g'night) yeah, but not for aerodynamic considerations and not at the reynolds' numbers of r/c modelling you *do* know what a reynolds' number is, don't you? i have some engines and the one has twice the hp but the other has more torque but it dont list how much 11:40pm well, you can always test it on a stand you might not get numbers, but it'll tell you what works 15.3oz, 0.9hp@12000rpm vs. 13.6oz, 1.62hp@16000rpm wtf am i supposed to do with that? tell me torque :)_ rofl per once you're better off just seeing which one is better at actually getting a helicopter off the ground well heres the problem A) i dont have either engine yet B) i dont wanna buy em both and find out hehe then you're either A) screwed, or B) going to have to find some publication that lists this class of engine and their torques to double the lift do i just spin the blades twice as fast? lol and increase pitch rofl seriously? yes sort of you apply more torque and increase the blades pitch at roughly the same time and the ratio isn't linear at all 11:50pm especially not near the ground the actual blade speed shouldn't change much, not by more than 30% [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed m (This nick is reserved by another user) why? i need to get the same lift as a main rotor but mine are 8 times smaller. since i have 4 it makes mine half the lift because it doesn't directly translate to torque wait a sec i would like to match lift without changing pitch how much blade area for the original main rotor? i might be able to increase my rotors by an inch about 60 sq in and the new rotor area? bout 7 7 sq in? ya for the entire set of blades? for one of 4 about 28 for all 4 so 28 vs 60 then? ya hm you *could* change the gearing of the engine by a factor of two maybe so more hp wont do it? [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kavandi (This nick is reserved by another user) actually, you won't need much more hp, because the tip speed will be much slower changing the gears isnt really an option for the same engine speed, the smaller diameter rotors will have less drag because tip speed will be much smaller oh uhh isnt the tip speed faster on the smaller rotors? the drag will go down by the squeare of the tip speed [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0105 TUNES: No such nick/channel i mean for the same angular speed i.e. you can run the rotors faster to get the lift you need without worrying about hp [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0105 TUNES: No such nick/channel oh wait, the small rotor actually spins a lot faster than the large rotor yes, but tip speed isn't much higher because of the smaller diameter the main rotor shaft has a 2" diameter gear that is connected to a .5" gear for the small rotor does that make sense? air: old design or new one? eh? darn brb for the gears what do u mean by old/new? im using the gears from the kit the engine has a gear about the same size as the tail rotor and they both connect to this big ass gear in the middle so im guessing the tail rotor is spinning at 16000rpm and the main rotor is maybe 1/10th that 9.5:1:5 ah crap, the main rotor is 74sqin and the tail 7 gear ratio is 9.5:1:5 whatever that means -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp110.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes 12:10am hm http://www.net-express.com/nexus/man-10.jpg nm on that 74 that's the engine you're using? it like that but better oh they show a .32 and im gonna use a .46 or .52 12:20am ah there isnt much difference in size or looks the .52 should do the trick the 46 has twice the hp of the 52 but the 52 is suppose to have lots of torque cuz its a 4 stroke engine hm isn't there a set of usenet groups for this? the 46 runs at 2000-17000rpm while the 52 runs at 2300-13000 you should probably find some online forum for this maybe there's even an faq or a howto collection :) there are news groups and even an irc server so, go ask *them* but they are all jackasses really? how so? if it dont come in a kit, with instructions, then they dont know howto build it there isn't a group of DIY's? or kit-hackers? no they *do* exist, and they must meet somewhere irl irl? in real life heh i don't think that they're common enough for that ya u got like 2-3 in that city over there and 2-3 in that other city over there... you have to realize though that hacking chopper kits is extremely rare ya 12:30am hacking plane kits is a hell of a lot simpler and more rewarding btw, that's because helicopter aerodynamics is anything but straightforward :P well helis for one are harder to fly it's basically for the same reason why are you doing this, anyway? i mean, most RC hackers are happy if they make a *two*-rotor design work, let alone work well well planes suck, and helicoptors are boring but this is kewl i could buy the daganflyer or roswell flyer butthey use motors and thus battery power and they only fly for 5-9 minutes before u need a new battery plus they can only carry about 1 additional once no its not, coordinating collective pitch with lateral control will be hard enough without trying to make the thing *go* somewhere BL BR \ / X / \ FL FR fl/br clockwise fr/bl c-clockwise forward pitch fl/fr-- bl/br++ backward pitch fl/fr++ bl/br-- left roll bl/fl-- br/fr++ right roll bl/fl++ br/fr-- left turn fl/br-- fr/bl++ besides, have you considered that there might be problems with vibrations when you transmit torque in four different directions? right turn fl/br++ fr/bl-- throttle direct to engine throttle not that simple it is that simple every time you change the pitch on one of those rotors, you have to compensate torquewise and *without* upsetting the control scheme the motor based ones are + formation so they fly forward with one rotor. mine will be X formation so it has 2 rotors forward same thing [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com jordan.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) well the + only requires changing pitch of 2 rotors. the X requires pitch on all 4 [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net hm.. the scheme seems workable in simple terms [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from jordan.openprojects.net. how will you trim it in flight, though? trim what? i mean, how will you fine-tune the ++'s vs the --'s 12:40am so that you get properly coordinated movements well i will use pots on the board and test fly, adjust, test fly adjust until they are right hm and then my handy dandy computer radio can make any other changes well, i happen to have the opinion that you won't be able to balance the control system correctly without resorting to non-linear controls because of the fact that multiple rotors won't play together linearly why not? besides that is what GYROs are for :) like i said, helicopter aerodyanimics are a very complicated thing 3 gyros and that thing will sit in a perfect hover <_ruiner_> what do sandwiches have to do with it? <_ruiner_> jk and all helicopter pilots know that even the simplest design is hard to maneuver air: yeah, and try to take it *out* of that hover :) i'm just saying that getting multiple rotors to play together can't just be as simple as a+b sure it can afot and draganfly do it the same way * water/#tunes thinks air is talking out of his a** cept they dont have pitch control on the rotors, they just increase speed real-world multiple-rotor helicopters are anything but simple to design control systems for ah no pitch control, that explains it in that case it's not so bad eh? pitch control changes lots of variables at once 12:50am [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com jordan.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from jordan.openprojects.net. bleh... well, good night all -:- water [water@tnt-9-246.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] cya -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: devlin.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from hogan.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) 01:00am [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Simba (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: king.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com brin.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from brin.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us1017.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Deek (GHOST command used by _Deek_) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed wolf (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed doze (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn172.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pipiness: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pipiness[usl7-248-158.netsecure.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-9-56.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- pipiness [gigi@usl6-248-138.netsecure.net] has joined #tunes hi pipiness * pipiness/#tunes waves are you interested in tunes? i saw you earlier 03:50am [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kerneld (GHOST command used by kerneld_) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Peaker (This nick is reserved by another user) not sure dont know wat tunes is 04:20am seen the web site even? [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed ImUnknown (This nick is reserved by another user) 04:30am -:- water [water@tnt-9-56.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no]) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Mike_W (GHOST command used by Mike_Wx) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn176.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn156.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. 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[openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed xeno42 (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- thomas_ [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes hi * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations thomas_!" :-) 08:20am cheers! -:- SignOff thomas_: #TUNES (Read error to thomas_[193.217.63.152]: EOF from client) 08:30am -:- SignOff pipiness: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pipiness[usl6-248-138.netsecure.net]) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed sgore (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@*.cas-kit.golden.net, expiring at 947073634: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. -:- pipiness [gigi@usl8-248-249.netsecure.net] has joined #tunes * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug -:- irc [iepos@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed cowboy (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Mike_W (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff irc: #TUNES (Leaving) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Col_Panic (GHOST command used by icCol_Pan) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@*.trikotazas.lt, expiring at 947078895: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. 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[openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed MoRpHin (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (brb) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us811.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-150.ici.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Burtbot (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- dantes [l_adams@206.69.52.95] has joined #tunes -:- dantes [l_adams@206.69.52.95] has left #tunes [] [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed MoRpHin (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- washort [washort@d125.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us817.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf >>> You(TUNES_) are now known as TUNES -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Unknown command: NEWLOG [msg(tunes)] newlog 2000.0105 IRC log ended Wed Jan 5 12:39:09 2000