IRC log started Fri Dec 3 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1203 -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn33.delft.casema.net]) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (weekend ...) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn25.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes m abi cups 04:00am * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug quiet tunes-list lately.. unquiet it I sent a mail calling for dispatch on sets instead of individual types hopefully it is not a new thought just like having union types? that's the simple case oh, you mean sets described by extension? as in { x | P(x) } ? not quite sure yes and how do you resolv priority conflicts? I don't know yet ;) what you want is no more an object system; it's an expert system. not really an expert system with an object-like syntax? 04:20am the OR case fit quite well into the object-system.. and AND and NOT case too, and combinations of these threee that's boolean combinations; they fit, but at quite a space*time cost that can be cached/memoised and it is mainly of interest during development (at least in my case) sure, but the priority mechanism will still be very costly btw, why not just use multiple inheritance in CLOS? because it is generated code in my case I don't want to add |A OR B| dummy superclasses to the superclass-lists the single OR-case was cheap however if it's generated code, what's the problem w/ dummy classes? it is generated to c++ and java too, and I don't want to make OR'ed version of all combos in the Lisp-code this should imho be transparent with the normal object system I'm not sure what you mean about C++ and java... 04:30am nevermind the general case of it should allow types to be specified with e.g DEFTYPE and then use TYPEP to find appropriate methods that will increase the expressiveness of the language considerably sure. Again, the hard question is about the prioritization of such things mmm * Fare/#Tunes has problems receiving c.l.lisp I'm sure many lispers appreciate pardon? * Fare/#Tunes has brought many (deserved and undeserved) flames upon me on c.l.l 04:40am some were definitively undeserved as for the lisp-entry I did some updating as for bringing philosophy and political views into a "technical field", that is bound to be controversial yup; I suppose I ought to remove political stuff from the tunes glossary I myself is somewhat skeptical to the mix of the two or rather no. I suppose I ought to put it in a a database where opinion stuff would be clearly tagged that is better imho political and philosophical views are important but we here in the west has been trained to see the technical and scientific field free of political agendas, religious views, etc s/trained/taught/ I spent a year studying political science, and in a way it was nice to get back to computer science because of the mess in all political science texts where half of the time had to be used to separate political views from facts but then again computer science, and the geekosystem is filled with religions and political agendas, but it's taboo to mention it ;) that's a shame. Instead, we ought to have been taught to see the relationships between technical and non-technical ideas, and be able to judge when they are strong and when they are weak 04:50am I don't think the geekosystem is ready for that.. nor are normal society the geekosystem is however ready for a TUNES-implementation obviously there's none to hand out yet :( :( :( 05:00am unfortunately btw: I need an id-scheme to identify functions, classes, etc uniquely.. a mangling scheme of some sort. Do you know of any papers or resources for such? you mean, on top of a standard language, or inside its implementation? on top of a standard language btw, what's a canonical URL to explain mail-transmitted mind-viruses to newbies? what is "mail-transmitted mind-viruses"? :) Fufie: on top of a language, I fear you'll have to memoize the function name inside the function (unless the language lets you eq functions, in which case you can use an external hash table) Fufie: "send this to n persons least havoc wreaks upon you" Fufie: "send this to n persons to prevent havoc to wreak upon them" I don't know of such an url :( I think you misunderstood what I meant. I have an xml-format where I have all info about functions, classes, etc. But to represent e.g what functions are called by a function I need a unique id for the other function to let that information remain valid when other tools read the xml-format and wish to present it. Unfortunately, what complicates the picture is that the id must also be valid e.g when generating info 05:10am either you have a language-dep name-mangling that takes into account any package/module/foo system for other files which use the same function or you abstract over this mecanism and suppose some such beast gives you unique tags already I need a name-mangling scheme with all the package/module/foo info yes then it's language specific languages that link through C already have such stuff, usually C is easy C++ is worse (for instance, for Scheme, the gambit compiler has such a name-mangling algorithm) (for LISP, you'd have to look at GCL, which I think compiles thru C) (for ADA, look at GNAT; etc) ok.. I'll have a look.. but may end up using the system I use now which is? based on the location in the source code file, startline, endline, startcolumn, endcolumn but I'll check around some it's an achilles heel of the system 05:20am your thing is ok as long as the source doesn't change that's ok for a static-source browsing system, but not for one that would track software evolution. depends on what you want yes.. that's the problem and the info should not come from source alone.. info should be addable from other places as well.. e.g the profiler 05:30am then you need structural name mangling * zarq/#tunes is away: weggo 06:20am yes.. which is further complicated by structures overlapping each other.. ahem. What languages do you support? currently: c/c++ and java.. scheme and common lisp will be added pretty soon easy to add new languages 06:40am another problem with C is pseudo-namespaces due to separate compilation with different headers, etc yes.. C sucks anyway die C, die! :) and the generated xml-files must be linked, just as object-files and then id's must be the same.. location is the best solution so far.. the structure+location combo I work on now is complicated :( -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[206.63.100.13]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes 06:50am hmm.. maybe this will do.. :) 08:20am bnf? BNF? abi, BNF is Backus-Naur Form BNF? i heard BNF was Backus-Naur Form 08:50am -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp011.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-138-128.s128.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us136.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.105.138] has joined #tunes bad day today.. *yawns* everything I touch becomes buggy.. why is that? have you checked your current biorythm ? =P I'll go and watch the telly.. no harm being done then At least I am not filling up other people's mailboxes with "sorry, my last mail had some errors" 11:20am -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.105.138]) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp116.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes Fufie: don't touch this channel, today! don't you touch my mind today too l SYNTAX ERROR LINE 69 12:00pm pardon? :) oh.. hehe 12:10pm -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.159] has joined #tunes * Fufie/#tunes yawns nothing fun on the telly 01:20pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp10.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 9 days, 14 hours, 20 minutes and 19 seconds ago, saying: air: or another, but i don't remember installing the vga font on any XFree 3.3.5 boxes [Tue Nov 23 23:23:33 1999] abi: senn water abi: seen water water was last seen on IRC 32 days, 2 hours, 24 minutes and 8 seconds ago, saying: good point [Mon Nov 1 11:19:50 1999] 01:50pm -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.159]) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.159] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp116.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- yoo [ultima@user-38lc6a1.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us136.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.159]) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.159] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.159]) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.159] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us937.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Ping timeout for yoo[user-38lc6a1.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- yoo [ultima@user-37kbala.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes isp...sucks... yes ok, so what about a virtual machine with 2 stacks and 2 heaps 1 linear stack for data, 1 for kontinuations 03:10pm 1 heap for linear data, one for classic data also, the whole vm is virtualizable, so you can replace heaps hum; maybe one of the two stacks should be multilinear instead of linear by classic data you mean bite-sized objects? or maybe the linearity of each stack/heap should be virtualizable? eihrul: classic as opposed to linear linear means the system ensures that there is essentially one pointer to the data therefor classic is non-linear? :) yup, in general, classic is non-linear although it can happen to be linear as a special case linear for vectors, right? -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Leaving) and things similar... -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) 03:20pm -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by norton.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from bear.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is bear.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from bear.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from bear.openprojects.net) -:- bear.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(24)] 3% -:- [global users on irc(318)] 46% -:- [invisible users on irc(369)] 54% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(687)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(32)] (avg. 21 users per server) -:- [total channels created(189)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !bear.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 51 (50 clients) !bear.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#tunes:7)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ mibin ] [ eihrul ] [ Fare ] [ Fufie ] [ zarq ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.300 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES fare: I think it was Mark Twain.. not Disraeli was it? oops. My fortune file says Disraeli. But perhaps Disraeli stole it from Mark Twain I can check it.. two sec fortune isn't quite infallible it was disraeli.. it was my mind that was not working as it should 03:40pm hmm.. type-oriented meta-programming.. fancy name :) 03:50pm fare: the phd is at: ftp://progwww.vub.ac.be/dissertation/1998/ -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes 04:00pm Fufie: great! 04:10pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us137.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-112.s112.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( <k!14>) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.159]) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp092.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes <_ruiner_> abi: seen air air was last seen on IRC 21 hours, 25 minutes and 39 seconds ago, saying: but u have to open it with a sendto now [Thu Dec 2 19:46:39 1999] <_ruiner_> abi: brix? brix is at http://www.qzx.com/brix 05:20pm -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp092.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ hoy Tril -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) hi 05:40pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp349.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- yoo [ultima@user-38lcn49.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-13.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey-lo all 07:00pm <_ruiner_> hiya what's up? <_ruiner_> not too much...killing time before I go out drinking...what are you up to? Pondering OS kernels <_ruiner_> do tell Well, I'm trying to find a decent kernel for my system design. So far the only one coming close is core's Clementine, but trying to get a copy for evaluation is a pain in the ass <_ruiner_> what would cause the bios to not keep its settings after a reboot? <_ruiner_> dead battery? dead battery or bas CMOS <_ruiner_> skeptical on the bad cmos likely a bad battery tho <_ruiner_> thats what I was thinking but the dude left right as I asked how old the pc was Well, buy a battery 07:10pm so, know any good kernels to look at? <_ruiner_> crud...what was the name of the os with an exokernel....? <_ruiner_> ummmm.... ExOS Aegis 2 I know of where the exokernel is the only good part * Downix/#tunes studied them already <_ruiner_> "_ruiner_ umm not really I mean the hardwareclock is set correctly its just when I issue the command hwclock --hctosys and reboot its like nothing happend" <_ruiner_> aegis is the one I was thinking of ok aegis is ok, but it is not robust enough nor does it have many of the needs I have <_ruiner_> any ideas on this dude's pc? this is messed up... 90% likely it's either a bad battery, a bad RTC or possibly a y2k bug or the BIOS is just badly coded 07:20pm * Downix/#tunes has seen badly done BIOS's before hmm thought could be a messed up keyboard BIOS <_ruiner_> where are you from? USA, New England <_ruiner_> dammit! what? <_ruiner_> I'm looking for somebody nearby with a credit card rofl Why? in hopes they will lt you use it? <_ruiner_> cuz I don't have one... <_ruiner_> its not like I wouldn't give them the money * Downix/#tunes nods * _ruiner_/#tunes refuses to get a credit card -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Leaving) <_ruiner_> I'm using an old browser, so I don't trust its security anyways... * Downix/#tunes doesn't have a CC <_ruiner_> how old are you? I'm 23 I refuse to get one <_ruiner_> excellent...I'm not the only one! alright * _ruiner_/#tunes personally thinks all online commerce should be done with printable order forms and fax machines hehe smart idea I had an idea for a super-encryptian system But I may still try it, so I will not discuss it 07:30pm <_ruiner_> if it can be made, it can be unmade yup <_ruiner_> stupid fucking e-commerce <_ruiner_> its like a bunch of techno morons playing with new toys... <_ruiner_> one the client end I mean... * _ruiner_/#tunes refuses to get a cell phone yup I have a cell phone <_ruiner_> I'm kinda a technophobe when it means that it will infringe on my privacy * Downix/#tunes nods Which is why I speak on an encrypted digital cell phone <_ruiner_> paying with cash makes one quite anonymous <_ruiner_> ok...the idea that somebody can contact me anywhere, anytime doesn't appeal to me yup My cell phone is off unless I want to call <_ruiner_> thus, no cell phone ok <_ruiner_> I gotta get going...nice chatting with you for once...come around more often <_ruiner_> bye -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) 07:40pm -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX-75p3 by panasync) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us744.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us200.javanet.com] has joined #tunes abi: v2 is at http://www.v2.nl/v2_os/ 11:10pm hmm 11:20pm -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1204 IRC log ended Sat Dec 4 00:00:00 1999