IRC log started Sun Oct 24 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1024
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!norton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 15 (13 clients)
!norton.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr.
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-:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || Perl haters unite.
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[ TUNES     ] [ abi       ] [ Zhivago   ] 
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<fire> hello
<Fare> ole
<fire> Fare!!!
<fire> read your email
<fire> well...
<fire> yes do
* Fare/#Tunes fetches his e-mail
<fire> how are you ever going to run a project if no one can get ahold of you?
09:40am
<Fare> not
<fire> ?
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<fire> did you read LISP vs FORTH?
<fire> Fare
<Fare> was FORTH vs LISP, actually
<fire> yes
<Fare> we have FORTH already in retro
<Fare> the main difference is actually in memory abstraction:
<Fare> the FORTH memory model is lower-level
<Fare> POP-11 offers a virtual machine that's a high-level FORTH, and that is integrated with a LISP
<fire> well after i wrote that i talked to some others about the subject
<Fare> personally, I believe we should have both levels accessible, but well separated
09:50am
<fire> and for a high level language forth is too much binded to a specific implementation
<Fare> the portable core should be high-level
<Fare> the non-portable stuff can be done in a lower-level FORTH.
<fire> an though lisp can be implemented with a stack it's not binde to that implementation
<Fare> yup
<fire> ok
<fire> so do you want to have the HLL like lisp?
<Fare> yup
<Fare> although other syntaxes will come, later
* fire/#tunes can never figure out how to pretty print in lisp
<fire> so many ()'s
<Fare> so many { ; }
<fire> i would appreciate it if you would read your email on a regular basis...for TUNES's sake
<fire> i was thinking...if everything in a language is an object and every member of an object is private, how would you change it's attributes
10:00am
<eihrul> does not private infer the object can change itself?
<fire> it infers that no other object can access any member objects (directly)
10:10am
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<Kaufmann> Anybody have any thoughts on designing a reflective purely-functional language?
<fire> functional languages suck :D
<Kaufmann> lol
<fire> and most object oriented languages suck too
<Kaufmann> (define suck (lambda () '(functional languages suck)))
<eihrul> fire: and your language has elements of both?
<fire> Lengua is object oriented
<fire> purly
<fire> er
<eihrul> okay, so it sucks
<fire> purely
<Kaufmann> LOL
<fire> i said most object oriented languages suck
<Kaufmann> it sucks purely
<fire> silly billy
<eihrul> nope....
<Kaufmann> fire, why do functional languages suck?
<eihrul> if you say they suck because they are object orientated, then Lengua sucks because it is
<fire> but i did not say they suck because they are object oriented :P
<Kaufmann> orientated is wrong
<fire> smalltalk is cool
<Kaufmann> yeah, smalltalk is cool
<Kaufmann> LSD (the alisp desktop environment) will have a lot of smalltalk
<Kaufmann> except it'll be cooler
<eihrul> why so?
<Kaufmann> well, for one, it'll be truly reflective and thus more flexible; although smalltalk was a pioneer in terms of practical reflection, it is still too static
<Kaufmann> alisp will also support a purely functional subset
<eihrul> agg, a language that needs a subset of itself?!?!?
<Kaufmann> ?
<eihrul> that would be an admission of bloat, sir
<fire> sounds like YABL
<fire> :/
<eihrul> yeah, like lengua :)
<Kaufmann> what I mean is, you can control the compiler's behavior so that it'll behave as though it's purely functional or allow imperativeness as well
<Kaufmann> yeah, that's what I mean
<fire> :P
<fire> ph34r lengua
<eihrul> then that is not a subset of the language
<eihrul> which is okay
10:20am
<Kaufmann> well, it kinda is a subset... when you turn purely-functional behavior on, and then use only functional constructs, you are in effect using only a subset of the language, which excludes imperative constructs
<Kaufmann> ...
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10:30am
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<Kaufmann> Me leave too
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Well, I'm off. "Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!)
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10:50am
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<smkl> hey water
<water> hey
<water> last day of vacation until december
<eihrul> a.k.a. the worst day of any vacation
<water> heh
<water> does anyone know if there's an open-source equivalent of PointCast?
12:00pm
<water> or maybe if there was a similar product for linux?
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12:10pm
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<water> :P
<water> where are all those packets going?
<eihrul> what's PointCast exactly?
<water> it takes a free account with passwd and provides you with a toolbar with scrolling filtered news and a menu system for accessing interneet utilities of all kinds
12:20pm
<eihrul> closest we have are applets for specific window managers that read headlines from slashdot
<water> and all of the summaries of various items can be explanded by looking at related sites
<eihrul> AFAIK
<water> heh
<water> there's more in the world than /.
<water> it's nice to have computer companies' stocks in semi-real-time
<water> not to mention weather forecasts with radaar maps, etc
<eihrul> there are applets for other sites as well, not just slashdot... but i believe they are mostly geek sites
<water> exactly
<water> there should be a general-interest version
<water> i.e. for real people
<water> it's as if linux users don't need convenience of info-access
<eihrul> nah, i'd think that most of them duplicate their own private code to retrieve various information
<eihrul> in which case a lot of code gets written, none of it very visibly
<water> heh
<water> sounds like a lot of wasted effort
<water> as usual :)
12:30pm
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<water> hcf: wha'td be a good offer for an open-source contract to make a modular PointCast clone
<hcf> dunno
<water> is there any counterpart to pointcast for *nix?
<hcf> dunno
<water> hmm
* water/#tunes checks the kde project site
<water> its' weird to have a nice robust internet-ready os that can't get info for you in a automatic, customizable way
<water> maybe one of those "personalized web pages" services does the same thing
12:50pm
<water> ah... kticker
<water> damn, it's geek-news-limited
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01:00pm
<water> bbl
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01:10pm
<waffle> hey everyone
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<waffle> oh, there really is a fire, i thought fare had just misspelled his name when setting the topic :)
<air> heh
<air> is it true that merced will be sold using the name "itanium"?
<waffle> hey, i ran into a interesting situation, maybe someone here might know the solution.
01:20pm
<fire> uh
<fire> hello
<waffle> air: don't know...  would break their "pentium" nameing streak
<air> waffle: well considering that merced is not compatible with pentium...
<waffle> oh yeah, that would be bad to call it the pentium 4 wouldn't it? :)
<waffle> call it, wewannacompetewiththealpha?
<waffle> i was trying to use a broken/bad modules implementation in a scheme implementation, which i couldn't get the parameters to work any other way then typing them in, when i started trying to look for a way to do (apply "(+ 2 2)").  (in otherwords evaluate a string), but i can't figure what to translate the string to.
<waffle> anyone have any ideas?
01:30pm
<fire> blarg
<waffle> blarg?
<fire> im bored
<fire> i can't think
<fire> who exactly are you?
<fire> new here?
<smkl> hmm i'll have to sleep
<smkl> i'll miss all the #C fun
01:50pm
<waffle> i've been here before, but rarely show up
<fire> ah
<fire> night smkl
<waffle> and if your bored, you can help me try to figure out how to apply a expression that's in a string :)
<fire> ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/cs345/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html
<fire> scroll down to the part about writing a scheme interpreter
<waffle> eval-string.  got it. thanks
<waffle> hey that's a cool page.  I'll have to bookmark it.
<fire> :D
<fire> i aim to please
<air> please me by writing a compiler for brix
02:00pm
<waffle> heh
<fire> i've never written a compiler before
<fire> it'll suck ass
<air> i need to figure out how its done
<hcf> air: http://altavista.looksmart.com/eus1/eus53832/eus155852/eus53906/eus279721/r?l&izf&pin=991023x6985d19373490771001&
<air> thanks
02:10pm
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<water> hmm. a new guy?
<water> hello waffle
<waffle> hi water
<waffle> we should stay away from each other...  would end up with soggy waffles othewize
<water> heh
03:00pm
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<Kaufmann> Hrrrmph
<Kaufmann> who is a perl hater?
<hcf> Kaufmann: read 1999.1023
04:10pm
<Kaufmann> brb
<Kaufmann> Hey, the project doesn't even have a logo yet!
<Kaufmann> Bah, I was hoping there'd be a /good/ reason for somebody not to like perl
<Kaufmann> but nooooo, all they got is "it's too dirty".
<Kaufmann> and the old APL coder's "there's too many ways to do it" bitch
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<hcf> ask water directly
<Kaufmann> I would, if he were here
<Kaufmann> fire, why don't /you/ like Perl?
<fire> it makes me feel dirty
<Kaufmann> while (reverse split //, 'ytrid leef em sekam') { print unpack pack 'C', $_; }
* fire/#tunes BARf
* Kaufmann/#tunes *grin*
<fire> it's just so ugly
<fire> what can i say
<Kaufmann> You gotta learn to see the inherent beauty in ugliness
<fire> ...
<Kaufmann> It's like a Rodin sculpture
04:20pm
<fire> i sure wish water was here
<fire> is Fare awake?
<Kaufmann> the Caryatide à la Pierre
<Kaufmann> It has a hidden meaning
<fire> Kaufmann: do you know smalltalk
<Kaufmann> I'm not an expert, but I've used it
<Kaufmann> why?
<fire> how do you change an attribute of an object (example mabye)
<Kaufmann> Like what?
<fire> say you've created a CONS cell object called MyConsCell
<fire> it has cdr and car
<fire> to get car you would do "MyConsCell car"
<fire> how would you change car
<Kaufmann> MyConsCell car: 'whatever'
<fire> oic
!Hyrlik:*! does anyone have lilos contact number?
<Kaufmann> Just for you, I'll present the equivalent in Perl ;)
!irq:*! yes
!Hyrlik:*! I need it please msg it
!irq:*! why not just wallops it? heh :)
<Kaufmann> $myConsCell = new ConsCell; $myConsCell->{v} = 'whatever';
<Kaufmann> of course, Perl doesn't have built-in linked lists (mostly because it already has flexible arrays), but I've written a module to do it anyway.
04:30pm
<fire> um
<fire> :(
<fire> hmmm
<fire> when you define MyConsCell car is global?
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<fire> in smalltalk
<_ruiner_> no!
04:40pm
<fire> ?
<Kaufmann> what do you mean by global?
<fire> what if you were are ""blarg" car"?
<fire> er
<fire> typed ""blarg" car"
<Kaufmann> ?
<fire> "some string" car
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<Kaufmann> you can't do that
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<fire> ok
04:50pm
<fire> abi: migration
<fire> abi: migration?
<abi> no idea, fire
<fire> anyone know what object migration is?
<eihrul> taking an object, and migrating it
<fire> yes yes
<Kaufmann> *applause*
<Kaufmann> hrrrrm
<fire> migrating an object
<fire> what is that
<Kaufmann> what context?
<eihrul> moving around
<fire> sorta like object duplication?
<eihrul> i.e. if you take water from one glass, and spill it into another, you're migrating water
<Kaufmann> no, what context (porting, what?)
<fire> programing languages
<fire> programming rather
<hcf> fire: see tunes:glos
<fire> ok
05:00pm
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!wichert:*! verne.openprojects will be rebooted shortly to upgrade to a new kernel -- we apoligize for the inconvience
!wichert:*! of course we will apologize as well :)
!wichert:*! for those of you who don't know apologize either, I suggest buying good dioctionary *grin*
!irq:*! uh, apology accepted (:
!wichert:*! yeah yeah, it should be dictionary. sue me :)
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-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Well, I'm off. "Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!)
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<fire> lo
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<fire> hello
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<fire> wb 
08:30pm
-:- fire has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || Perl haters unite || http://www.laputan.org/talks/ss98/sld001.htm
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<hcf> ruiner will enjoy that
<water> yo
<fire> hey agua
<water> :)
<water> fire: :(
<water> ;)
<fire> i'm finding some good reflection sites
<washort> fire? water? where's earth and wind? :)
<fire> we have air
<fire> we don't yet have earth
* washort/#tunes has just heard about the TUNES project -- looks very interesting
<washort> you guys seem to share my preference for programming systems. :)
<water> washort: cool
<hcf> washort: seen arrow? http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/
<water> thx hcf
<washort> no, not yet
* washort/#tunes reads
<washort> a google search for "lambda nature" turns up a link to a #tunes irc log. this *must* be a good thing. :)
<fire> introspection: When a program can look at at the objects from which it is built
<water> sorry, the paper is out-of-date
<fire> why can't the arrow paper be that simple water!?!?!
08:40pm
<washort> fire: smalltalk is the most obvious example of that, i think :)
<water> fire: sorry, mods will be forthcoming when my computers are working fine again
<fire> :)
<water> washort: yeah
<water> umm. keep in mind, all, that i've had a few glasses of wine tonight
<fire> :D
<fire> reminds me of that one day
<fire> (i better make sure i "clense" the logs)
<water> (hic)
<water> :)
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<lar1> Hey
<water> heh
<water> hey lar
<water> fire: which day was that?
<fire> a long while back
<water> btw, does anyone think that this Prism vs OIL mlist discussion amounts to anything for Tunes?
<fire> i don't like Prism
<lar1> Whats Prism and OIL?
<fire> i don't know what OIL is about
<water> oil is basically and AOP framework for lisp that is in development by laurent martelli
<water> s/and/an
<hcf> oil is also at http://laurent.penguinpowered.com/~laurent/oip.html
<lar1> AOP?
<abi> AOP is at http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/projects/aop/
<water> my problem with it is that AOP is just a special case of re-write logic
<water> aop is also aspect-oriented programming
* lar1/#tunes adds learning forth to his todo list
<fire> lar1: good idea
<fire> what is reification in layman's terms?
<water> (darn it, i really like pointcast)
<water> you take something implcit and make it into an object
08:50pm
<lar1> water:  Have any good resources for learning forth online?  Or should I hit the books?
<water> lar1: www.forth.org
<fire> lar1: one second
<lar1> water:  Thanks
<fire> you won't find anything good on forth.org
<fire> accept my dcc
<water> fire: you have something better?
<water> fire: where'd you get it?
<fire> i good text pyro sent me
<fire> s/a/i
<water> it'd be better if there were a url to share for it
<lar1> fire:  Ok, thanks.  I was reading /. so I didn't see the DCC popup :)
<fire> np
<fire> uh oh
<fire> my brother is home
<fire> he will want to use the internet
<lar1> water:  Shall I put it somwhere URLable?
<water> heh
<fire> i can
<fire> i'lle put it up on my site
<water> lar: well, i'd hoped to have the original url, but the url of a copy will do
<lar1> Ok, well it looks like fire has got it
<hcf> i'l find the orig once i see the copy
<lar1> hcf:  How do you go about doing that?
<hcf> lar1: magic
<water> heh
<lar1> :)
* water/#tunes wonders if hcf forms a ring of candles around his machine every time he looks up a url ;)
<lar1> I woudn't dobut it
<fire> http://www.tunes.org/~dave/
<lar1> Like that McAffe commerical! :)
* water/#tunes has been traumatized
<water> ye gods!
<fire> ...
<fire> ?
<water> fire: clicked on the wrong link in your directory ;)
<fire> did you see my picture?
<water> yeah, that's what affected me so
<water> :(
<fire> :(
<hcf> the orig url iz http://erwin.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551/primer.txt
<water> lol
<hcf> lar1: some forth links @ http://www.albany.net/~hello/links.htm
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09:00pm
<fire> ...
<fire> so um
<fire> how's coding water?
* eihrul/#tunes shoots his keyboard.
<water> i'm working out the vm primitives needed, mostly
<water> they're reflective of course
* washort/#tunes wonders why perl haters should unite
<fire> it's a joke
<washort> ah. 
<fire> i dislike perl
<washort> perl's a kluge.
<fire> :D
<washort> *but - it's the only kluge you'll *ever* need. ;)
<water> heh
<washort> perl haters are a dime a dozen. go for something like "C++ haters unite" :)
<fire> that would be a better idea
<fire> but we all know everyone in here hates c++ with mabye the exception of eihrul
<washort> ah, of course.
09:10pm
-:- fire has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: 'Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || http://www.laputan.org/talks/ss98/sld001.htm
<fire> :)
* washort/#tunes likes to quote Alan Kay at java and C++ fans 
<water> heh. seen it
<water> washort: squeak fan?
<washort> "Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS."
<washort> *nod*
<water> very cool
<washort> squeak is the funnest programming system i've ever played with
<fire> Lengua fan ;)?
<eihrul> fire: just because i use it doesn't mean i like it
<washort> fire: never heard of it, alas
<fire> eihrul: the word "like" was never used
<water> it's fire's little baby
<fire> wahort: yeah i didn't think so
<fire> :)
<washort> it all started when i picked up a book called "The NeXT Book" and read about this outrageously expensive machine with a cool GUI....
<fire> im beginning to think just to dump my ideas into the TUNES HLL and take no credit
<eihrul> fire: "not hate"
<washort> then, much later, i learned Objective-C....
<eihrul> fire: i never said i didn't hate C++ either :)
<water> yeah!
<washort> then i found out it was based on Smalltalk. :)
* water/#tunes recalls drooling over NeXT machines at age 10
<washort> ObjC is a hack, but at least it's a smaller hack :)
* fire/#tunes recalls playing Gizmos and Gadgets on his 486 at age 10
<washort> my favorite language at the moment though is Haskell. :)
<fire> :P
<air> eihrul: yes u did
<air> eihrul: u wanted to wrote yer uk in c++
<air> s/wrote/write/
<eihrul> i pondered it
<eihrul> i did not do it
<water> haskell's pretty cool
<water> washort: tried maude?
<washort> water: no, i haven't.
<water> abi maude?
<abi> maude is a rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/
<fire> i don't like the logical or functional programming paradigms
<water> it's pretty interesting... it turns out that re-write logic serves as a good framework for memory-management schemes from gc's to stacks
* washort/#tunes keeps typing in the wrong channel. erf.
* fire/#tunes invents the STUD paradigm
* washort/#tunes dislikes the word "paradigm". :)
<water> fire: yeah whatever
<fire> simplification through unification and decentralization
<fire> :D
<washort> unification? sounds like logic programming to me. :)
09:20pm
<fire> no
<fire> unifying concepts
<fire> like classes and objects
<fire> code and data
<fire> etc
<washort> sounds like CLOS. :)
<fire> abi
<abi> fire?
<fire> er
<fire> abi: CLOS?
<abi> fire: no idea
<fire> ?
<washort> Common LISP and its Object System.....
<water> heh. like self
<fire> i dislike common lisp
<water> mmmm.... self 8)
<fire> too bloaty
<water> just optimize it for space instead of speed, then
<air> why does nyquil have to taste so bad?
<fire> air: just close you're eyes and it will go away
<washort> air: it's 12% alcohol. who cares? :)
<air> 10%
<water> hmmm. anyone have good idea on how to formalize the reification of a graph from its specification?
<washort> it's gone down? cool.
<air> it was 25% a few years ago but they dropped it to 10%
* fire/#tunes still doesn't get what reification is
<water> maybe partial-evaluation of the entire environment
<washort> speaking of graphs --
<water> reify = make a new object
<washort> have you guys seen the GEL project? http://gel.urstudios.com
<water> not yet
<fire> but why the big name
<fire> there must be something else
<washort> it's a multiuser 3D environment based on graph theory, of all things....
<water> uhh. not quite the same thing, but cool
<washort> it's got reflective elements in it, too, that's what made me think of it...
<washort> rather, it's a (or will be when completed) reflective system
<water> it seems like a graph rewrite system
<water> i.e. replacing graph parts according to rules until a final result is acheived
<fire> i must be getting to sleep
<fire> gnight all
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> see ya fire
<water> hmmm. it seems Alice-like
09:30pm
<air> ahh drinking hot sauce makes the nyquil taste go away
<water> heh
<hcf> water: alice?
* water/#tunes enjoys the Merlot
<water> it's a squeak project for intuitive 3d authoring
<water> not very good yet, but a few months' time should show some real improvement
<hcf> abi: alice is also at http://www.alice.org
<abi> okay, hcf.
* washort/#tunes tries to decide what languge to teach his younger brother as an intro to programming....
<water> smalltalk! :)
<washort> water: no, smalltalk is a treat for if he does well with his first language. :)
<washort> water: i'm thinking Scheme, probably --
<water> yeah
<washort> simple syntax, "functional" way of thinking
09:40pm
<water> yeah, high-level objects aren't what the newbie thinks about when programming
09:50pm
<water> hmm. i guess that no one's interested in developing tunes or arrow theory, then?
<air> nope
<air> u can all help me with brix
* water/#tunes hurls some BRiX at air.
<air> arrow and tunes will never make it to the home users desktop
<water> air: thanks for the expert opinion
<eihrul> neither will brix
<water> heh
<air> yes it will
<air> brix will be easy to use
<air> no home idiot will be able to learn lisp
<water> arrow and tunes will be able to be ported to various os's/ operating environments
<hcf> air: just keep on lying to urself
<water> they won't have to learn lisp
<eihrul> air: you can create a prettier interface
<eihrul> prettier in the sense of ease-of-use
<hcf> water: u listening in #osdev?
<water> sorry, reading and thinking
10:00pm
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* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<washort> E? blech.
<washort> wmaker or sawmill :)
<washort> agh, 3 channels is too much :)
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11:10pm
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<water> welcome to a quiet channel
<td> heh very unusual
11:20pm
<water> well, if you have any ideas for formalizing an orthogonal set of arrow primitives, i'm all ears ;)
<td> i have no clue
<water> yeah, i don't expect much
<water> i'm just trying to figure out a basic set of computer operations that would support arrow cleanly
<td> ive been thinking of my own computing 'system' i guess
<td> but i have the problem of not knowing where to start
<water> heh
<water> well, what do you want from it?
<td> basically i want the computer to be able to reach every possible state i guess
<water> "to be able to ..."?
<td> anything
<water> "anything"?
<td> not really a goal as to what i want it to do in the end
<water> any programming language will let you do "anything"
<td> i guess being able to use the computer more efficient
<water> you're being way to vague
<water> even tunes is more specific than that :)
<td> yeah
11:30pm
<td> reflection is one thing i'd like
<water> what's wrong with, for example, self or lisp?
<td> well.. nothing i suspect
<water> (i'm trying to figure out what you really are interested in)
<water> have you tried either of them, or something close?
<td> looked into lisp.. very little though
<water> _tried_ using it, though?
<td> nope
<water> well, using it would give you a feel for what it's efficient at
<water> and what problems it has
<water> because every language has issues that are difficult to address
<td> what problems does it have offhand?
<water> not impossible, but difficult
<water> lisp?
<abi> lisp is ((simply) (perfect))
<td> heh
<water> no, abi
<water> lisp doesn't handle i/o well, or concurrency, or distributed ideas
<water> it also doesn't handle modular code handling
<water> the last issue's pretty important when it comes to sharing code
<td> yeah
<water> there's also the problem of non-deterministic function-calling
<water> which is a pretty techinical issue, but applies to asynchronous event-handling for multiple event sources
<water> (period)
11:40pm
<water> oh yeah, and because it ain't C, it doesn't get optimized very well, so don't expect stellar performance
<td> yeah.. i already know that part
11:50pm
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<water> heh
<water> well, i have work tomorrow
<water> i might be around, but probably not
<td> ok
<td> heh later then
<water> maybe to test my linux box connection, which i plan to fool with to get working
<water> toodles
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1025
IRC log ended Mon Oct 25 00:00:01 1999