IRC log started Sat Oct 16 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1016
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
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<Kaufmann> Hey eihrul
<eihrul> lo
08:10am
<eihrul> abi: seen water
<abi> water was last seen on IRC 5 days, 19 hours, 55 minutes and 29 seconds ago, saying: s/wrok/work [Sun Oct 10 12:15:44 1999]
<eihrul> abi: seen core
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 17 days, 16 hours, 50 minutes and 45 seconds ago, saying: what's up? did you write more of EMK? [Tue Sep 28 15:20:31 1999]
<eihrul> hmmm
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08:20am
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<hew> does anyone know how to setup suse 6.2 to run the gnome, i am new to linux
<smkl> umm? wrong channnel?
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09:50am
<eihrul> indeed
10:50am
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<eihrul> gakuk
<Fare> gakuk!
11:00am
* Tril/#TUNES is at an installfest
<eihrul> not a linux one i hope
12:00pm
<Tril> why
12:10pm
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<eihrul> Tril: it should be a tunes installfest
<eihrul> you must save yourself for one if nothing else
12:20pm
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<Fare> Gakuk!
01:40pm
<eihrul> gakuk
01:50pm
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* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 24 hrs 36 min 42 secs
<Tril> http://140.160.210.242/video/ - wcug installfest tril is at now
<hcf> hi Tril
<Fare> Tril: what's the cheapest reliable DNS registration company?
<Tril> dunno
<Tril> I recommend www.corenic.org
<Tril> because it's the non profit one
<Tril> (or group of )
<Fare> ok
<Tril> but I  haven't used it...
02:40pm
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<fire> "Hey you hot hunk of burning text based love.  How about I dereference your pointer?  fire"
<fire> "How about you not.  Whatever the hell you mean by that, it needs to stop _now_.  Jon"
<fire> lol lar1 is funny
<eihrul> i think it would be more funny if you said null pointer
03:00pm
<fire> yes well...
<fire> it was a sput of the moment thing
<fire> spur rather
<fire> brb
03:10pm
<fire> i must leave so soon already
<fire> talk to yahs tonight
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03:20pm
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<lar1> Hey
<Fare> yeah
03:40pm
<lar1> What kind of music is KMFDM?
<Fare> "music"
04:00pm
<lar1> Do you know what type?  I have never heard their stuff and it looks pretty popular on /.
04:10pm
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<lar1> Hey impo
<IMPO> hi
<lar1> Anyone have the NASM docs handy?  The site is down and I need em' :(
<eihrul> yah, one sec
<lar1> Thanks
<lar1> Muchos gracias
<eihrul> welcome
04:30pm
<lar1> Are beowulf cluseters somthing the avgrage Linux user with 10+ machines could do?
<lar1> bbl
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04:40pm
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<water> hey!
05:00pm
<water> hmm
<water> well, i'll be back later, if no one's home
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<Fare> water!
<water> Fare!
* water/#tunes has been boning up on lisp wizardry
<water> among other things...
<Fare> boning?
<water> er...
<water> practicing / learning
<water> i'm working out the fine details between arrow and lisp, and tryin to adapt apply/eval to arrow
<eihrul> hey
<Fare> ok
<water> hey eihrul
<water> car and cdr are obvious, but i'm trying to work out the essential basic framework
05:10pm
<eihrul> get any work done on the revised arrow paper?
<water> eihrul: yep, but it won't be published until the basic "arrow vm" is finished
<water> eihrul: since i intend to have it act as a user's guide.
<water> (eventually)
<eihrul> i would hope in a timely fashion though :)
<water> basically, the "arrow primitives" must be graphs that specify the machine functionally (data-flow and control-flow)
<water> eihrul: why? the code's more important
<eihrul> to read the revised arrow paper before i cease to be able to think i exist
<water> "before i cease to be able to think"?
<eihrul> before i die... but that's not appropriate for this channel
<water> geez... it's only been six months
<eihrul> </sarcasm>
<water> k
<water> Fare: i think that i have a better handle on the "LambdaND" issues
<water> (better than i did before)
<IMPO> i just bought a camera for no reason at all
<water> impo: huh? what kind?
05:20pm
<IMPO> polaroid land 600 series
<IMPO> really old piece of shit
<IMPO> but it was only 3 bucks
<IMPO> and it works
<water> a good deal
<IMPO> indeed
<water> old camera + scanner = digital cam :)
<IMPO> god no wonder it's 3 bucks
<IMPO> film for it is 25 dollars for a 10-picture cartridge
<water> bingo
<IMPO> well that's for color
<IMPO> black and white is 20
<water> anyway...
<IMPO> i am too susceptible to impulse buying
<IMPO> i once bought a compaq prosignia server for no reason
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<water> a server? on impulse?
<water> hi air
<air> damn, im 26 today. i feel old
<IMPO> yes
<IMPO> it was on a netscape auction
<IMPO> 52 bucks
<IMPO> i couldn't turn it down
<water> you need help, impo
<IMPO> i know
<IMPO> :(
<water> air: but you have a cool OS in the works :)
<IMPO> at least i am not swayed by gambling or excessive amounts of alcohol
<IMPO> like everyone else in my family
<air> water: how does that relate to me turning 26?
<IMPO> i may be the first one to die of natural causes
<water> air: it means it wasn't wasted, i suppose
<Fare> water: I'll need to split lambdaND in three and make it readable
<air> water: oh no, it WAS wasted :)
<water> Fare: yeah, i agree
<water> air: well, then. n/m
<water> Fare: it seems arrow = reflective lisp + more info than programmers usually want
<eihrul> water: IIRC, you said something to the effect of all modern OSes being a waste
<water> Fare: which is why i've tried to avoid referring to it as a Lisp
<air> until boll gates is drawing welfare, my life will have been wasted
<air> s/boll/bill/
<water> air: don't be obsessed
05:30pm
<Fare> what's that "more" thing?
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<water> declarative information, basically
<water> i.e. various models for languages (domain-specific or otherwise)
<water> eihrul: well, i was trying to cheer air up
* eihrul/#tunes ponders.
05:40pm
<air> this freakin sucks, all my page tables for objects are being filled correctly but then they somehow get erased
<Fare> water: I'd like to see more about that
<Fare> water: have you written about it already?
<water> hmm. well, the paper talks a little about that
<water> not nearly well enough, though
<eihrul> air: somehow is not good
<air> damn!!! invlpg takes 25 clocks
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> like i said, flushing tlb was 2x cycles, flushing individual page is 2x cycles
05:50pm
<air> bochs: panic, decode: : Grp7:
<air> eihrul: any idea what that means?
<eihrul> check the instruction decoding code for anything resembling Grp7
<eihrul> or just use grep
<eihrul> other than that, no
<air> ah its that damn invlpg
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<air> invlpg [offTEMPPAGE]
<water> hi kauf
* eihrul/#tunes hmms... hungarian notation merged with java capitalization
<air> oh crap, thats a 486 instruction
<eihrul> it, umm, draws the attention of the eye very well
<eihrul> but at the same time pushes it away
<air> eihrul: ?
<Kaufmann> eihrul, sounds spooky
<eihrul> Kaufmann: take a look, right after you entered
<Kaufmann> what, invlpg [offTEMPPAGE] ?
<eihrul> yes
<Kaufmann> that's Hungarian?
<Kaufmann> That definitely isn't Java
<eihrul> like i said, its a combination
<eihrul> it can't be classified as either one completely
<Kaufmann> What is that code supposed to do?
06:00pm
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<lar1> Hey
<water> hey lar
<lar1> Hey water
<lar1> water:  I want to clear some stuff up with you
<water> lar1: i'm listening
<lar1> water:  I mis-worded what I ment by my assembly 
<lar1> 'compiler' I ment assembler
<water> oh, so you wanted to make an optimizing assembler? i groked that already
<Kaufmann> the correct usage is 'grokked'
<water> s/groked/grokked :P
<lar1> Yes, but when you were angry that day, you were telling it around like I was trying to do somthing stupid and immopssible cause you can't compile assembly
<Kaufmann> Rev. Heinlein said so
06:10pm
<lar1> water:  Where can the Arrow paper be found?
<water> lar1: read "advanced compiler design & implementation"
<eihrul> water: dragon book?
<water> http://www.tunes.org/files/papers/
<water> eihrul: the dragon book doesn't address optimization as well
<water> eihrul: besides, the book i mentioned is very up-to-date ('97)
<eihrul> ah, that's why i asked
<eihrul> i was wondering if it was a different book/paper/or whatever
06:20pm
<water> i picked up this great book on mathematical lattices that actually includes an example where arrows are units of information specifying functions / relations / etc
<water> i wasn't even looking for it
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<water> hello, nonesno
<lar1> water, thats cool
<_nonesno_> hi
<Tril> hi
<water> nonesno: familiar with tunes?
<water> Tril!
<water> Tril!
<_nonesno_> water: no, this is my first time here
<water> well, we can answer questions or just talk
<_nonesno_> cool
<eihrul> and sometimes ask them
<lar1> Tril?  Is he awake?  wow...
* water/#tunes thinks Tril's "hi" was a false alarm :(
<_nonesno_> uh, bye
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06:30pm
* Fare/#Tunes is back but not for long
* Fare/#Tunes hears the call of 3053
<Kaufmann> Why hello, Faré
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06:40pm
<eihrul> far indeed
<Fare> comp.os.misc is completely braindead since it's been overtaken by doze98 wanabees!
<water> eek
<lar1> Yuch
<Fare> well, time to goto bed, now!
<eihrul> need a more discrete name for an os development mailing list
<water> ok, bye Fare
* Fare/#Tunes plays a lullaby
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<water> comp.os.dev?
<eihrul> no... that won't help
<water> why not?
<eihrul> comp.cs.dev maybe
<eihrul> you can't have .os in the name
<lar1> whats wrong with .os?
<water> ah. to be discreet
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<water> but "cs" would have to include languages and other tools
<eihrul> no
<eihrul> cs => computing system
<water> exactly. yes
<water> languages provide computing systems
<water> (e.g. smalltalk or lisp)
<eihrul> okay, so then yes it would
<lar1> comp.cd.os.dev
<eihrul> and there is no reason why you couldn't include those
<lar1> s/cd/cs
<eihrul> because they provide much of the same functions as operating systems
<water> but most os-coders are c/asm coders, and so wouldn't appreciate the language implementors
06:50pm
<lar1> be back, I need to configure somthing
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
<eihrul> well
<eihrul> you'll drive away the 31337 demo coders
<eihrul> since most of them won't be able to recognize the .cs part
<eihrul> and what's left are the tolerating groups
<water> yeah, that makes sense
07:00pm
<water> you'd be left with only HLL people, though :)
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<water> hey hcf
<water> we're discussing type theory in #modtunes
<hcf> hi
07:10pm
<Kaufmann> Anyone want to look at my linked-list Perl module?
<hcf> Kaufmann: say that in #perl
<Kaufmann> hcf, already did
<hcf> oic
07:20pm
<Tril> Sounds absolutely useless, is it a programming practice project?
<water> it's for alisp, it seems
<Tril> perl already has dynamic resizable arrays, why do you need lists
<Kaufmann> Tril, nope... I just wanted to have lists because I'm really used to using cons and car/cdr
<Kaufmann> this way I can say
<Kaufmann> $mylist = new LList "foo", "bar", "baz"; cons $mylist "quux"; $foo = car $mylist; $barthruquux = cdr $mylist;
<Kaufmann> Actually, I started to think of it because of a discussion in #perl
<Kaufmann> We were talking about Scheme, and Tombstone mentioned a function foo, such that
<Kaufmann> (define foo (lambda (l) (caddr l)))
<Kaufmann> And it struck me that doing this in Perl wouldn't be very elegant
<Kaufmann> (actually, the original was (define foo (lambda (l) (car (cdr (cdr l)))))
<Kaufmann> )
<Kaufmann> So now I can do something like
<Kaufmann> $foo = sub { car cdr cdr shift; }
07:30pm
<Kaufmann> Well, I'm off
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!)
07:40pm
<water> well, be back later, all
<IMPO> bye
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07:50pm
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<lar1> Hey
08:00pm
<lar1> air:  Why did you decide to code BRiX in asm?
08:10pm
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<water> back
<lar1> Hey water
<lar1> is >> Shift right?
<water> for what language?
<lar1> C
<water> c => yes
<lar1> Thanks
<water> Tril: still here?
08:20pm
<lar1> Damnit!  How does Bochs get 0x3d6 out of 0x3d5?!  Don't tell me Bochs dosn't support moving the cursor...
!Hyrlaris:*! We need more linpeople q3 people @ quake3.roundtablepizza.com
<Tril> what
<water> just wondering if it was all right to continue the discussion
<Tril> ok
08:30pm
!Hyrlaris:*! We need desperatly need more linpeople q3 people @ quake3.roundtablepizza.com
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<water> wb
<lar1> Hey hcf
08:40pm
<water> damn 3-yr-olds!!!
<water> sorry, there are now children living at this house
<water> it is becoming quite intolerable
<Tril> moving soon?
<water> yeah, next few days
<water> sorry, it's very hard to concentrate right now
08:50pm
<water> the parents of these kids are incredibly foolish
<lar1> heh
<lar1> Put cotton in yer ears
<lar1> ;)
<eihrul> children?
<eihrul> step up from your previous room mates eh
<eihrul> ?
<lar1> Mah!  I can't find an unused domain I want!
<water> new (additional) roommates
<lar1> water:  What kind of a place are you in??
<eihrul> b < a, a + b > a...
<eihrul> unfortunately?
<water> 2-story house owned by a friend
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<water> this is _definitely_ intolerable
<water> hello cysgod
<Cysgod_> hi there.
<lar1> water:  You are in the navy, right?
<water> yes
<Tril> the matrix is on here
<water> cysgod: got questions?
<Tril> cysgod joined because he saw me in this channel by looking on my screen
<water> ah
<lar1> Tril:  He is physically in the same room as you?
09:00pm
<Tril> yep
<water> there are a lot of quiet people here waiting for something interesting - what exactly?
<lar1> water:  I am getting more annyoed by the minute at Bochs, bfe, and my code
<water> hehe
<lar1> water:  But I would take a break to talk should an interesting topic arise
<lar1> water: hint hint
<lar1> :)
<water> well, the type theory discussion in #modtunes has fizzled for lack of an issue
<Tril> pretty soon I am going to leave and move to another location
<lar1> Tril:  Really?  where to?
<lar1> water:  type theroy?
09:10pm
<Cysgod_> watching the matrix... reading the info on tunes org.
<water> lar1: what about it?
<lar1> water:  What is it?
<water> yikes
* lar1/#tunes hides
<water> it's the formal theory of types... like variable types
<lar1> Like int, char, etc?
<water> yes, but hopefully more high-level types, too
<lar1> high-level types?  What would that entail?
<water> (why are 3-yr-olds living with bachelors?)
<Cysgod_> the type type? :)
<lar1> Heh water, good point
<water> cysgod: yes, that too
<lar1> Cysgod_:  That hurts the head bigtime
<water> i consider the thoery to pretty much be nonsense
<lar1> the type of the type type :)
<Cysgod_> no, the type type, would be member of the type type set.
* Cysgod_/#tunes thinks about types and arrays and mappings.
<water> i'm more inclined to mathematical theories than ones born in cs
09:20pm
<water> cs-theorists take their ideas from the machine, usually
<lar1> water:  Are you good at math?  I have a math question I have been meaning to ask at #math, but haven't.  Perhaps you could take a stab at it?
<Cysgod_> types and sets then?
<water> lar1: try me
<water> cysgod: more like category theory and representation theory
<Cysgod_> aye.
<water> cysgod: btw, in relation to tunes, i am the Arrow guy
<lar1> water:  Why is the suare root of a negitive number complex, while the <cubic|4|5|ect> root of a negitive is real?
<water> lar1: evaluate (-3)*(-3)*(-3)
<lar1> -27
<water> then evaluate 3i*3i
<lar1> i being what?
<water> i=sqrt(-1)
<lar1> Oh yeah :)
<lar1> 6i?
<water> nope...
<water> 3i*3i= (3*3)*(i*i)= 9 * i^2 = 9 * (-1) = -9
<water> which makes (3i)^3= -9 * 3i = -27i
<water> instead of -27
<lar1> Oh cause 3i is complex?
<water> yeah, pretty much
* water/#tunes remembers Galois theory
<water> :)
<water> lar1: forget Galois theory for now
<lar1> How does 9 * i^2 = 9*(-1)?
<lar1> water:  Since I never knew it, that shouldn't be too hard :)
<Cysgod_> i = sqrt(-1)
<lar1> Damn, I am making a lot of stupid mistakes tonight
09:30pm
<lar1> water: so -3^3 is complex?
<water> what?!?
<lar1> Oh oh
<lar1> I had better get my TI out
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<water> ugh
<fire> yoyoyo
* water/#tunes slaps lar1 with a book on logic
<fire> you guys i just won a bottle of champaign
<lar1> hey fire
<lar1> water:  Lemme crunch that somore and see if I can fix that :)
<fire> at a church function!
<water> you mean champagne?
<fire> yes yes
<water> lar1: (-3)^3=-27
<fire> they old ladies told me i was too young
<IMPO> :D
<IMPO> become a jew
<IMPO> they encourage children to drink at a very young age
<fire> funny you mentioned that
<water> cysgod_: any questions yet?
<lar1> IMPO No they don't!
<IMPO> yes they do
<IMPO> i am a jew
<fire> our neighbor is jewish
<IMPO> and at passover as far back as i can remember
<fire> he invited us to a passover
<IMPO> we have always had wine
<fire> i indulged myself on the wine
<IMPO> even at synagogue
<IMPO> they gave wine to the kids
<lar1> impo:  Thats different.  Thats for ceremony
<fire> i _love_ jewish wine
<fire> hi lar1
<IMPO> it is still wine
<lar1> impo:  Thats not enourging drinking
<IMPO> do you eat it?
<IMPO> or inhale it?
<IMPO> or worse..
<lar1> IMPO:  You know what I mean
<IMPO> they encourage drinking
<fire> hi water
<IMPO> it is irrelevant whether or not it is considered sacramental
<IMPO> they are still encouraged to drink wine
<water> fire: anything on your mind that i would be interested in?
<lar1> water: Oh hey!  That all makes sense!
<fire> my mind is cluttered with implementation ideas
<Cysgod_> water: not yet... distracted by the matrix as I'm reading.
<fire> im trying to get this interpreter done by monday
<fire> at least the first alpha
<IMPO> you said this weekend D:
<fire> same thing
09:40pm
<lar1> water:  So for the nth root of x, if n is even the result will be complex?
<lar1> water: x being negitive
<water> yep
* lar1/#tunes feels stupified
<lar1> thanks water
<water> np
<lar1> How can a circle have negitive area?  Our math teacher dubed it an inverted circle, tolds us not to even think about it because it will just confuse you, and you'll learn it in a few years anyway.  But now I wanna know :)
<lar1> s/you/us
* fire/#tunes continues to cut off his wart
<lar1> fire: Don't miss :)
<fire> it's a pretty big mofo
<lar1> no one knows about inverted circles?
<water> lar1: look it up
<lar1> water:  Where?
<water> www.ask.com, i guess
<fire> all ask.com is, is a hyped up search engine
<fire> that "Jeeves" won't answer my questions like he did on the commercial!!!"
<lar1> fire, yes, it didn't have what I wanted either!
<water> lar1: you could try *thinking*
<IMPO> fire: try propositioning him
09:50pm
<fire> lar1 reminds me of me 6 months ago
<lar1> water:  What do you mean by that?  An inverted circle is a circle with negitive area... I don't understand how that can be. 
<water> well, what would the radius be, then?
<lar1> negitive?
<eihrul> imaginary
<IMPO> anti-length
<IMPO> it is all clearly defined in my anti-everything theory
<water> a circle is the set of points in a plane whose distance from a defining point is constant
<eihrul> pi * r^2 = area, so if pi * r^2 = negative, r. must be imaginary
<fire> lar1: why don't you ask your teacher after class?
<fire> eihrul: high five dude
<IMPO> yes but how can a length be negative
<fire> doesn't matter impo
<IMPO> it does
<water> the #tunes channel is full of idiots, apparently
<lar1> fire: my teacher sucks
<eihrul> IMPO: infinities don't necessarily exist but we can imagine them....
<IMPO> a length is a measure of distance
<IMPO> if the smallest distance is one point
<IMPO> then it must all be positive
<IMPO> or zero
<fire> i think eihrul is right
<fire> we must look beyond common sense :)
<IMPO> i do not believe in infinite anything
<eihrul> doesn't matter
<eihrul> they are still mathematical entities
<water> impo: who cares if you *believe* in it? that hardly matters in any formal theory
<IMPO> a theory depends on beliefs
<IMPO> if the beliefs do not exist
<water> what?!?!?!?
<eihrul> well if you use one part of mathematics....
<IMPO> a theory has nothing to stand on
<eihrul> you might as well use the rest of it
<water> impo: this is NOT a scientific theory, its an epistemological theory
<IMPO> give me one example of an inverted circle
<water> impo: i.e. no observations required
<IMPO> in two dimensions it must be visible on paper
<water> impo: an inverted circle with radius 2i!
<IMPO> so show me one
<eihrul> IMPO: show me an example of a 5 dimensional shape
<IMPO> uh
<water> impo: exactly
<IMPO> i never said anything beyond 2 is provable on paper
<IMPO> all that is required is length and width
<water> 5d shapes are real mathematical entities, just like circles radius 2i
<fire> die wart bastard
<water> shut up, fire
<IMPO> what are the five dimensions
<IMPO> length width depth
<IMPO> what would the other two be
<water> impo: they aren't "things"
<fire> how do you like salicyclic acid suckah
<IMPO> time?
<abi> time is 21:57:53
<IMPO> well if it has dimensions as properties
<IMPO> they must be definable
<IMPO> otherwise you cannot say they only have 5
<water> impo: tensors have nine "dimensions" and apply to space-time
<water> well, 16, actually
<IMPO> well give me all five dimensions
<water> impo: 1,2,3,4,5
<water> or n1, n2, n3, n4, n5
<IMPO> it is impossible to display anything greater than 3 in a 3-dimensional world
<water> think abstractly, you fool!
<fire> :D
<IMPO> just like it is impossible to show more than 2 in one of 2-dimensions
<IMPO> the most you can see at any one instance
<water> impo: ever represented a 3d object on a sheet of paper?
<eihrul> so... senses suck anyway
<eihrul> they're so limited
<IMPO> that is not the same
<IMPO> think abstractly, you fool!
<IMPO> if you are 2-dimensional
<water> impo: that is EXACTLY the same
<IMPO> you cannot see all of those dimensions
<water> impo: what does it matter?
<IMPO> i suggest you read a book called "flatland"
10:00pm
<fire> i think water is right
<IMPO> it matters
<IMPO> fire: you are an ass-kissing weasel
<water> impo: it matters to YOU
<water> impo: it doesn't matter to mathematical reasoning
<IMPO> it matters because i am the only one thinking about it correctly
<IMPO> if you are 2-dimensional
<IMPO> you cannot draw a 3-dimensional object
<water> <IMPO> it matters because i am the only one thinking about it correctly
<water> <IMPO> it matters because i am the only one thinking about it correctly
<water> <IMPO> it matters because i am the only one thinking about it correctly
<water> <IMPO> it matters because i am the only one thinking about it correctly
<water> <IMPO> it matters because i am the only one thinking about it correctly
<IMPO> that is very mature of you
<water> it doesn't matter any more
<IMPO> in two-dimensions you can only see length and width
<IMPO> you cannot see depth
<water> so?
<IMPO> therefore depth is impossible to imagine
<IMPO> SO
<water> you can logically reason about it
<fire> impo: we can think of three dimensional objects two dimensionally
<IMPO> but you have no proof
<water> that's all that matters for a theory to be valid
<IMPO> hah
<fire> like a cube drawn on peice of paper
<Cysgod_> nothing exists.
<IMPO> no fire
<IMPO> you simpleton
<fire> or better yet a hypercube on a peice of paper
* water/#tunes high-fives Cysgod_
<IMPO> a 2-dimensional person can only see 2-dimensions of that object
* Cysgod_/#tunes turns on his nihilism non-light.
<IMPO> the other one does not exist to them
<fire> 4 dimensions
<IMPO> think of a 3-dimensional object
<IMPO> as a large quantity of slices
<water> positivistic bullshit, IMPO
<fire> doesn't matter what you cannot see
<IMPO> to a two-dimensional person
<IMPO> you only see one slice at a time
<fire> it's still there
* eihrul/#tunes hails impo, King of WYSIWYG.
<IMPO> that is not it at all
<IMPO> you are thinking not imaginatively, but dreamily and unrealistically
<water> impo: leave, please
<fire> no no no
<IMPO> and not based on any proof
<water> impo: or discuss tunes
<IMPO> you might be intelligent when it comes to computers
<fire> water: bad adittude
<IMPO> but your opinions on everything else should be suppressed
<fire> er
<fire> :(
<water> impo: please leave. you are only being noisy now. i'm sorry
<fire> i don't like seeing my two friends fight
<fire> :(((
<water> fire: i am not your friend
<fire> but you are mine
<fire> :)
<IMPO> i will leave only because you are so closed-minded that you are not letting anything conceivable reach you
<fire> im just not yours
<Cysgod_> if you can't see friendship does that mean it doesn't exist?
<water> thank you, Cysgod_
<fire> water: let's think according to fuzzy sets
-:- SignOff IMPO: #TUNES (:D)
<water> Cysgod_: any questions yet?
<fire> you're sorta my friend
<fire> just not a lot
<water> fire: shut up or discuss something meaningful
<fire> yes yes 
<Cysgod_> water I understand a lot of the reasoning.
<fire> well i was thinking about reflection...
<water> cys: ok
<fire> what makes object duplicators reflective?
<water> fire: duplicators?
<Cysgod_> expandable = reloadable (in regards to Reflection)
<fire> you know like in squeak
<Cysgod_> ?
<fire> no classes
<water> fire: what are you talking about?
<water> cysgod: where did you read that?
<Cysgod_> well I was reading about reflection, which sounds intelligent.
<fire> don't you remember our previous discussion about squeak not going to have classes anymore and objects are just duplicated and you said that was reflective?
<Cysgod_> but I'm curious if expandable = replacable.
<water> er.. it's not directly reflective... it makes reflection less complex
<water> cys: with regards to individual objects?
<fire> brb
<water> fire: good
<eihrul> reminds me
<eihrul> needs to finish reading the squeak manual (had SAT 2s to study for)
<Cysgod_> water: yes...
10:10pm
<water> cysgod: not sure what you mean... are you reading "reflection review" or something?
<Cysgod_> water: if object a performs some function but I have an object that does the same thing more efficiently.
<water> well, it would be nice to replace the first object with the second, yes
<fire> i know how to create a powerful yet simple language but not how to make it powerfully yet simply reflective
<fire> that is a problem
<Cysgod_> water: yes so I'm wondering how one would achieve this...
<water> in principle, the language system could replace the object "on the fly"
<water> i.e. lock down the object so that it can't be accessed while the equivalent of the code pointer for the function is changed
<water> the old object definition could then be gc'd or stored elsewhere
<lar1> get to go
<fire> i know how to create a powerful yet simple language but not how to make it powerfully yet simply reflective
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (later all)
<fire> ahem
<water> fire: what do you want me to do about it?
<water> fire: i don't have a recipe for simply-reflective languages
<fire> well i don't just want to hack on a bunch of reflective features
<Cysgod_> interesting.
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<water> hello sinner
<fire> i would like a simple set of reflective features unified into the language
<water> cysgod: well, certain systems do this already
<fire> water: you asked me if i had anthing on my mind
-:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[02-106.006.popsite.net])
-:- Synner is now known as Syntax
<water> cysgod: like systems that specialize functions for specific types dynamically
<eihrul> fire: read water's arrow paper...
<eihrul> fire: should give you ideas
<fire> i got through a quarter of it
<water> i mean systems that specialize *generic* functions
<fire> it takes time you know
<Cysgod_> interesting.
<eihrul> fire: so, you have time
<fire> gee eihrul mabye i should go learn calculus while im at it tonight
<fire> i got _time_
* eihrul/#tunes yawns.
<eihrul> you could easily
<eihrul> if i can learn 1 year of physics in 2 nights
<eihrul> you can learn 1 year of calculus in 1
<fire> heh
<water> it'd be nice if someone here knew enough to be able to help me finish the arrow core design
10:20pm
<eihrul> define 'enough'
<fire> well that'd be fare who disagrees with quite a few of your ideas
<water> eihrul: being able to work with formal mathematical reasoning would be a good start ;)
* eihrul/#tunes sighs and looks at his wimpy high school mathematics education.
<water> eihrul: Dover math books. cheap and formal
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<eihrul> water: that assumes i've enough time to read them...
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<water> or rather that you'd _make_ the time like i did
<eihrul> then i have to give up other time...
<eihrul> like doing homework
<water> hehe
<eihrul> that would definitely mean no MIT and no CMU
<fire> or you can once again be like water
<eihrul> though i'm not sure if i'll get into either at this point anyway :)
<water> that stuff got me full-scholarships to those places
<fire> and not attend college
<fire> :D
<eihrul> fire: the thought has crossed my mind...
<water> shut up fire
<eihrul> but i don't necessarily want to work in the navy...
<fire> yes well any of the armed forces suck
<fire> just go to a community college like a plan on doing
<eihrul> water: i suppose i could always read during class
<fire> and avoid the cut throat politics of acedamia
<eihrul> just because they have me in school... doesn't mean i have to do schoolwork
<eihrul> if they must take my time after school, i will take theirs during
<water> i don't care!!!
<water> these are *your* lives
<eihrul> i know you don't :)
<fire> water: uh i got time to learn
<fire> i will help you ;)
<water> fire: this week?
<fire> i don't know about that
* eihrul/#tunes wonders...
<eihrul> knowing what tunes is....
<fire> i think i need to stick with lengua right now
<fire> and mabye forcing fare into starting on the TUNES HLL
<eihrul> water: why do you consistently seek help here, when people are pitifiully under-qualified? except for perhaps fare or a few others?
<water> because this place *should* attract qualified people
<water> based on the web site
10:30pm
<eihrul> i don't think tunes is necessarily high in traffic
<eihrul> seems relatively constant with respect to patronage
<fire> and it kinda seems like common knowledge that tunes isn't going anywhere :(
<eihrul> (or in all directions at once)
<eihrul> other question: why are the mathematical formalisms important over the conceptual aspects of arrows?
<water> huh? there's a difference?
<eihrul> i know there is... i'm just wondering why you're requesting such experience
<water> because most people can't tell the difference between a Lisp and Arrow
<eihrul> that is a conceptual difference, iitc
<water> no, there's also a formal difference, because Arrow is not just about the arrow shape itsself
<water> for instance, Lisp's have more than arrows as primitives
<water> in Arrow, you can't bootstrap the language based on using integers as data storage primitives
<eihrul> which could be seen as a conceptual difference...
<water> a formal conceptual difference ;)
<eihrul> yet more: why specifically do you need help with arrows?
10:40pm
<water> uh
<water> hmm... maybe implementing it so that it can reflect would be nice
<fire> later guys
<fire> I leave now
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
<eihrul> okay, with that in mind, i don't see why you request so much of those who help you :)
<water> who helps me?
<eihrul> well, those who *would/might/whatever*
<eihrul> now, i could be qualified to try and implement something with respect to arrows, but do i necessarily meet the credentials you expect? no :)
<water> if you could make a small system that does the basic things i need of arrow, i don't care what credentials you have
<water> but i seriously doubt you could do it, since very few people have a clue about 'how arrow should work'
<eihrul> well, from what i gather, you have your bootstrap ontology, a model of the ontology, ultimately the ontology carrying out a task that may change the model of the ontology and hence the ontology
<water> lol
<eihrul> but, of course, that could be completely wrong :)
<water> that's a lot of bs
<eihrul> okay, so fine, correct me
<eihrul> don't just tell me its bs, tell me why
10:50pm
<water> well, it's bs because it doesn't mean anything, not because it's wrong
<eihrul> well, why doesn't it?
<water> because it doesn't tell you anything about what makes arrow work on a computing device
<water> or how it interacts with user-requests
<eihrul> define 'about what makes it work'
<eihrul> it seems that you want more out of the implementation than an implemenation, no?
<water> well, arrow is *not* a language
<water> so, i'm not trying to write a traditional VM
<eihrul> and who said i thought it would be a traditional vm?
<water> i have to give the arrow environment access to the machine _and_ itself
<water> i said so, because you've never programmed anything else
<eihrul> and i'll always have never programmed anything else unless i try something else
<water> chicken before the egg
<water> someone has to write that "something else"
11:00pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us230.javanet.com])
<eihrul> ok, other than the ability to reflect on the machine, itself, and external devices, am i missing anything critical? :)
<water> huh?
<water> yes
<eihrul> being?
<water> for instance, there are two graphs in every arrow system which include arrows representing all the references that the system's arrows have
<water> which means that for every arrow in each of those graphs, there is one more arrow in each graph
<eihrul> that would almost fall under a model of itself though
<water> what?
<water> sure, i guess
<water> the problem remains how to be able to write 'code' in arrow and evaluate it
<water> especially code that adds new info to the system
11:20pm
<eihrul> there's only a few ways i can see it being done
<eihrul> by either directly manipulating models in system, or modelling the devices
<water> but how?
<abi> hmmm... but how is it a "thread" in the server's context? how does it access server data?
-:- SignOff Cysgod_: #TUNES (Cysgod_ has no reason)
* eihrul/#tunes thinks...
<eihrul> there would have to be a small kernel of code doing that
<eihrul> with a model of that kernel itself
<water> for now, i'm considering modelling vm functions as graphs that specify those functions, and replacing their usual spec code with smalltalk methods
<water> "functions" here being formally-defined mathematical functions
<water> and not numerical ones, lambdas
<eihrul> must sleep, bye
11:30pm
<water> k
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11:40pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1017
IRC log ended Sun Oct 17 00:00:00 1999