IRC log started Sat Sep  4 00:00:00 1999
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[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0904
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<Zhivago> always a bad sign when you irc as root
06:30am
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<ElGato`> HI FRIENDS
<ElGato`> :D
<eihrul> lo there
12:10pm
<ElGato`> how is everyone?
<eihrul> no comment
<ElGato`> :D
<ElGato`> yep yep yep yep
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<ElGato`> hi
<MAxD> hello Tuners
<ElGato`> what brings you here?
<MAxD> Tunes, of course! :o)
<ElGato`> :D
<ElGato`> well then
<ElGato`> (we prefer to be called tunesters :P)
<MAxD> ok, Tunesters ...
<ElGato`> first time here or what?
<MAxD> ElGato my English is horrible
<MAxD> no firts time
<MAxD> first
<ElGato`> MAxD: mine is too :)
<ElGato`> have you been to the web page?
<MAxD> where are you from?
<ElGato`> im kidding im from california (usa)
<MAxD> yes, web page .. 2 years ago I discovered the Tunes home page
<MAxD> I'm from Italy
<ElGato`> ah
<ElGato`> do you help with tunes at all?
12:20pm
<MAxD> recently I have contribuited to the Tunes maling list
<ElGato`> excellent
<ElGato`> what is your name?
<ElGato`> real name
<ElGato`> on the mailing list
<MAxD> Massimo Dentico
<ElGato`> ah wegner blah blah bla and the safe language
<MAxD> no-kernel, interection machines and other stuff ..
<MAxD> yes
<ElGato`> im glad to see you contributing
<ElGato`> =)
<MAxD> I hope these are useful
<ElGato`> yes, i am browsing them right now
<MAxD> sorry for the latency ... I have problems with english
<ElGato`> since you seem to be quite educated on language design could you tell me what all this high-order stuff is about?
<MAxD> language
<ElGato`> don't worry, you should see me when i try to talk to people in spanish channels
<MAxD> no, I'm a dabbler(?) :-)
<ElGato`> it takes me a while
<ElGato`> heh
<ElGato`> brb
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12:30pm
<MAxD> see you later
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12:40pm
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<ElGato`> back
12:50pm
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<ElGato`> hi
<shayne> howdy
<ElGato`> you a project member or just somebody droping by?
<shayne> i'm debating whether or not i want to join
<shayne> i'm just reading about tunes
<ElGato`> i see
<eihrul> you don't necessarily have to join to participate in tunes
<ElGato`> are you on the mailing list
<ElGato`> very true
<eihrul> there are lots of projects related to tunes you could join
<ElGato`> retro, all the subprojects, being liar's fluffer :P
<shayne> i'm building a distributive network in my basement and so i'm doing some research.. came across tunes
<eihrul> i dunno if liar's project is so much related to tunes as it is to smalltalk :)
<ElGato`> heh he hasn't told us much about his supposed language
<ElGato`> shayne: just hang around here and the mailing list and contribute ideas
<ElGato`> then decide if you want to code or whatnot
<eihrul> tis all i do
<ElGato`> i do one and say i do the other =)
01:10pm
<shayne> I'll have to subscribe to the mailing list
<shayne> i'm glad i found the tunes project.  There's a lack of interesting projects at college
<eihrul> tunes project isn't exactly fast paced, however
<ElGato`> shayne: http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/computers/tunes.html
<ElGato`> if fare would just pick a damn language
<shayne> neither is oberon, plan9, vsta :P
<eihrul> tunes has been around for years
01:20pm
<shayne> wow boot binaries ready to go
<shayne> wonderful
<shayne> sooooo how much of retro has been hacked for tunes?
01:30pm
<ElGato`> um
<ElGato`> well they really aren't too related
<ElGato`> people always seem to be under the impression that retro is bare-bones tunes
<shayne> i guess the word prototype gave me that impression
<ElGato`> yes
<ElGato`> sorry :\
<shayne> who wrote all these documents up?
<ElGato`> which?
<ElGato`> most of the tunes homepage was written by fare
<shayne> I see
01:40pm
<shayne> be back in a sec
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<ElGato`> wb
<shayne> thanks
<ElGato`> so um
<ElGato`> where you live and what's your age and junk?
* ElGato`/#tunes trys to make conversation
01:50pm
<shayne> haha
<shayne> I'm 19, living in Canada, I'm in IT at college
<shayne> I work at an ISP
<shayne> and I do a lot of programming
<ElGato`> i assume the name shyane makes you female?
<shayne> nope
<shayne> male
<ElGato`> er shayne rather
<ElGato`> oh
<ElGato`> sorry
<ElGato`> what sort of languages do you program in?
<shayne> C, C++, everyone knows vb, pascal, my biggy is perl and php, i know a little icon
<shayne> html
<shayne> primarily for unix
<shayne> i know a lot about databases too
<ElGato`> not everyone knows vb :P
<ElGato`> i shun  basic =)
<Tril> yes they do!!! And I havent even used it
<shayne> not everyone wants to know vb, but i had to learn it in colelge
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 13 hrs 1 min 59 secs
<ElGato`> hi tril
<Tril> from what I hear, it's just point and click
<Tril> shayne hello
<shayne> i learned a lot about the ms ways from college because of the ms sponsoring :/
<shayne> hi tril
<shayne> well it's point and click, programming is minimal, you just double click on an object and give it a function
<ElGato`> :P
<shayne> i was considering building something with OSKit but then i thought why not just help out on an opensource project
<Tril> shayne: are you volunteering to contribute to TUNES?
<shayne> maybe :)
<shayne> i've joined the mailing list
02:00pm
<Tril> I'm the server admin. and I do research for HLL, when I have time
<ElGato`> tril: how is your lisp?
<shayne> loveley
<shayne> lovely
<Tril> I'm fluent in C but I write lisp code rather slowly- i haven't written very much with it
<ElGato`> im ok with C and i tell people im good with asm and forth
<ElGato`> but don't really mean it =)
<shayne> I would like to learn lisp
<Tril> try the interactive lisp tutorial http://www.cs.tulane.edu/www/Villamil/lisp/lisp1.html
<Tril> or buy a book if you learn better that way
<Tril> i learn languages best by reading other people's code
<Tril> and mostly by modifying code
<shayne> what a wonderful website
<Tril> do I hear sarcasm?
<ElGato`> ban him tril (j/k)
<ElGato`> :P
<shayne> i'm not being sarcastic
<Tril> ok, you never can tell
02:10pm
<ElGato`> ban him anyway :P
<shayne> I know, but i'll do a :P if i'm being sarcastic :)
-:- mode/#Tunes [+b *!no@209.68.229.*] by Tril
-:- ElGato` was kicked off #TUNES by Tril (Bitch-X BaBy!)
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<ElGato`> :P
<shayne> are you guys running on unix?
02:20pm
<shayne> or a system with gtk and x
<Tril> i'm on a windows 95 box telnetted to a unix box
<shayne> hmm hehe anyone else?
<Tril> i can run gtk and X through x-win32 :)
<shayne> http://entity.netidea.com/index.php3
<shayne> it would be cool to run entity on tunes
<ElGato`> tril is tunes's l33t daddy
<ElGato`> =)
<shayne> we're trying to build a new gui implementation
<ElGato`> what makes entity special?
<Tril> sounds like it's reflective.
<Tril> from the phrase "modify at runtime".
<ElGato`> oic
<ElGato`> brb
<shayne> sorry I was on a tech call
<shayne> anyways, the idea behind entity is each widget has a name, you can specify the widget by using paths, like /window/halign/widget
<shayne> like a file system
02:30pm
<shayne> behind all this is an xml parser and gtk renderer
<Tril> does it have relative paths like ..
<shayne> yep
<Tril> inheritance of widget properties?
<Tril> prototype based object system?
<hcf> abi: entity is at http://entity.netidea.com/index.php3
<shayne> damn phone
<Tril> hi HCF
<hcf> hi Tril
<ElGato`> HCF!!!
<ElGato`> BUDDY!
<hcf> dont call me buddy
<ElGato`> BUT YOU'RE MY BUDDY. :|
<hcf> no, i am not
<ElGato`> D: ?
<ElGato`> abi: hcf is my buddy
<ElGato`> :D
<ElGato`> :P
<ElGato`> i gotta go
<ElGato`> BYE BYE HCF
-:- SignOff ElGato`: #TUNES (:D)
02:40pm
<shayne> anyways, the idea of entity is that you can drag widgets between applications
<shayne> it uses perl too
<shayne> it would be nice to use some other languages
<Tril> how do you drag widgets between apps? I thought it was for web pages...?
<shayne> nope have a look at the screen shots
<Tril> isn't "embedded perl"  for embedding perl in html
<shayne> any widget that you want to have dragged will have a special tiny little grab handle beside it
<shayne> no we embedded perl into entity, so you can use entity with in the code
<shayne> it uses xml for the gui, and perl for the functionality
<shayne> i have eto fix up the site
<Tril> I thought embedded perl was the name of a specific Apache module.
<Tril> maybe I am wrong.
<shayne> well we use the term embedded perl because you can run perl functions in your code
02:50pm
<Tril> do you use the ePerl interpreter?
<shayne> nothing too fancy, just the perl.h headers
<shayne> the perl-embed files does all the perl implimentation
<Tril> did you write that yourself, ordo you use hte standard syntax for embedded perl
<Tril> (where data is the default, and commands are escaped, contrary to standard perl)
<shayne> standard, most of entity was from already written stuff, like the embed, and xml portion of it was from expat parser for xm
<Tril> http://www.engelschall.com/sw/eperl/
<shayne> yeah ian toiled with most of entity
<shayne> cuz of the memory leaks
<Tril> who
<shayne> ian he works with me
<shayne> he did a lot of the gtk stuff
<shayne> www.gtk.org
<shayne> did some programming for gimp
<shayne> I learned a lot from entity
<shayne> i was from a c++ world and he showed me c
03:00pm
<shayne>  /clear
<shayne> so what sort of people are in here? university? freelance?
<Tril> i'm not a sort of person
<Tril> i'm going to university and work at an isp
03:10pm
<shayne> isp is fun stuff
-:- lar1 [LARMAN@dialup-209.245.143.85.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
<Tril> that.s I.S.P. Internet Service Provider to be clear
<Tril> Hi lar1
<lar1> Hcf:  How does one read an infobots db files?
<lar1> Hi tril
<hcf> lar1: what do u mean?
<hcf> lar1: /scripts/dump_db
<lar1> hcf:  Ohhh, ok, cause I opened on of the dbs and it wasn't plain text.  I thought it would be
<shayne> lISP
<shayne> :D
<Tril> they're berkeley hash DB's
<lar1> Whats that?
<Tril> a file format for storing data where you have two parts, a key and a value
<lar1> Hmm, sounds good
<lar1> Rminds me of the windows registry
<Tril> well, the registry is a tree, but yes, each folder in the tree has a key and a value
* lar1/#tunes swears never to write linked lists in C again!
<lar1> That was a nightmare and 1/2!
<Tril> the only thing bad about ll's in C is the static typechecking for what you can store in them
<Tril> i can write ll in C that is simple and easy
<Tril> now, if you aren't familiar with pointers... :)
<lar1> I was just storing ints, I figured I'd do some overloading for the other types but I gave up before I finshed with search and delete node
<Tril> C doesn't have overloading. You must mean C++, or typecasting in C
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<lar1> Yes, I mean C++
<Tril> did you make a class?
03:20pm
<lar1> I have to stop using them interchangeably... they aren't the same....
<lar1> Yes
<lar1> I had typedef struct { int data; int *nextNode;}node; and that all worked fine, but when I wanted the pointer in the 2nd node I couldn't figure out how to do it...
<Tril> node n; then use n->nextNode->nextNode
<Tril> err n.nextNode->nextNode
<lar1> You can do that?!?
<Tril> it's easier to just dynamically allocate the first node and use -> all the time.
<lar1> Thats what I did
<Tril> n=(node *)malloc(sizeof(node));
<Tril> n->nextNode->nextNode
* lar1/#tunes bangs head on C++ book several times
<Tril> yes, you can, butyou shouldn't need to access 2 nodes ahead if you write the loop differnetly :)
<lar1> Well how do I get to the 3rd nodes data with only the pointer to the 1st node's data?
<Tril> like i said above. or  for(x=0;x<2;x++) n=n->nextNode; then use n because it points to the 3rd node
<Tril> but dont do that if n is your only pointer to the beginning, or you wont be able to get back to it :)
<lar1> But you were saying there is a better way?
<Tril> what are you trying to do? walk the list?
<lar1> I want to get data out of any node, and main shouldn't have to store any pointers unless it wants to
03:30pm
* shayne/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<Tril> how do you decide which node
<lar1> By searching for the data
-:- SignOff shayne: #TUNES (Hey!  Where'd my controlling terminal go?)
<lar1> Main says data=myList.RetreiveNode(21);
<lar1> wait
<lar1> that makes 0 sense
<Tril> are you thinking "why don't I just use an array"?
<lar1> I'm thinking whats the point of a linked list if you already know the data you want....
<lar1> Making this was just an exercise to see if I could do it
<Tril> so what's the meaning of 21? I assume it means go to the 21st node?
<lar1> 21 would be the data Main is looking for
<Tril> yes, that's useless, unlses it's just PART of the data :)
<Tril> or, maybe you just want it to tell you how far down the list the value 21 is?
<lar1> I don't know what I was on when I came up with that idea
<lar1> So what is the point of a linked list?  Just to store data in fragmented memory?
<Tril> you use a linked list when you need to add and remove data, but you want it to have an order.
<Tril> so you need to add and remove stuff in the middle of an ordered list.
<Tril> if you always add/remove at one end, use a stack or a queue (depending on which end)
03:40pm
<lar1> Couldn't you just use an array and sort it?
<Tril> yes, but that would be if you didnt insert in the middle very much, because it takes time to do a sort, and a linked list is automatically sorted because you add in the middle
<lar1> but if yer list is 34, 55 and then and you add 1 to the middle, then it isn't sorted
<Tril> so dont add 1 to the middle
<lar1> But you just said that was the point of linked lists?
<Tril> dont' be silly. Your example doesn't demonstrate my point. I said you CAN add to the middle. Just beacuse you didnt give an example where you need to, doesnt say anything.
03:50pm
<lar1> When would you need to add to add to the middle
<Tril> duh, if the number was 40, instead of 1
<Tril> i dont think necessarily that a list of numbers is the best example, either. 
<Tril> personally i think the best use of linked lists is for teaching beginners about pointers :)
<lar1> Ahhh, ok
<lar1> Linked lists are about as good as a uK!
<Tril> learn LISP and the use of lists in general will be clear
04:00pm
<lar1> Hmmm, I think I want to learn Forth
<lar1> Is AI programmed in LISP?
<Tril> AI Research can be programmed in anything but yes, that was one of the design intentions behind lisp, to allow processing of abstract symbols not just numbers.
<lar1> Do you happen to know where I find information on implemneting Neural Newtorks?
<Tril> hcf can help you with that :)
<Tril> but actually there is a FAQ ..holdon I'll get it
<lar1> ok, thanks
<lar1> I've never done any NN stuff before and I'd really like to try it out
<hcf> abi: ann?
<abi> i think ann is Artificial Neural Networks at http://www.gc.ssr.upm.es/inves/neural/ann1/anntutorial.html
<hcf> also 1sec
<lar1> ok
<Tril> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/comp/comp.ai.neural-nets.html
<hcf> yeah, that
04:10pm
<lar1> hcf: How diffcult is implementing this kind of a thing
<hcf> dunno
<lar1> :)
<Tril> i did some nn's for a class in AI.. I do recommend lisp for it
<lar1> I was planning on c++... or is that just being stupid?
<Tril> first you need to leanr about what they are.  No, it's possible in C++
<lar1> Ok, thanks, I read up on it
<lar1> s/i/i'll
<Tril> already?
<Tril> hehe
<lar1> I'd take a look now, but I am doing some work for school to make mom happy
04:20pm
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<Tril> hi, liar
05:00pm
<liar> hey tril
05:10pm
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<fare> hum
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06:30pm
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<lar1> If I run a theme in E and then run a theme in Gnome, is that gonna cause problems?
<eihrul> shouldn't
08:40pm
<lar1> I can't figure out why my windows aren't getting colored properly... its annoying!
<eihrul> i don't use either
<lar1> :)
<lar1> Well the more I use it the more I don't like it (Gnome)
<lar1> E is better then fvwm though
<eihrul> in the true spirit of x11, i use just xterms and a simple window manager
<lar1> :)
<lar1> Simple is good
<eihrul> definitely, KISS
<eihrul> cool concept with a cool acronym
<lar1> Yes!  I love that acro!
<eihrul> FreeVMS?
<lar1> Huh?
<eihrul> there's a FreeVMS project now
<lar1> Whats VMS?
<eihrul> os
<lar1> Is it Unix like?
<eihrul> yep, yet another unix to clutter up the arena
<lar1> FreeSysV! ;)
<Tril> eihrul: watch your mouth
<eihrul> isn't that kind of what linux is?
<Tril> VMS and UNIX are completely separate beasts
<eihrul> how so? seriously? :)
<Tril> almost complete opposite :)
<eihrul> where can i find more info on it?
<Tril> eihrul do I know?  Try google.com or dmoz.org
<eihrul> you should! :P
<Tril> I had a VMS account once, never really learened the basic commands
08:50pm
<Tril> what is the freeVMS url?
<eihrul> www.freevms.org methinks
<Tril> nope, www.free-vms.org though
<Tril> abi: FreeVMS is http://www.free-vms.org
<eihrul> er wait
<eihrul> it's a www.freevms.com :)
<eihrul> bad omen... .com
<lar1> Yes... .com is bad news
* Tril/#TUNES is away again
09:00pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0905
IRC log ended Sun Sep  5 00:00:00 1999