IRC log started Mon Aug 16 00:00:00 1999
<eihrul> i have a 486sx
<eihrul> which is either a really crappy 486 or a 386 on steroids
<liar> is that the machine yer on now?
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0816
<eihrul> nope
<eihrul> it's the laptop sitting right behind me
<liar> could u run brix on it for me?
<eihrul> sure... lemme find disk
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<eihrul> this better not break the poor little thing :)
<eihrul> it's my favorite portable
<eihrul> despite it having a monochrome monitor and little HD space or ram
<eihrul> i hate typoing my root password 4 times
<liar> 4 times?
<eihrul> yeah...
<eihrul> i type in the password by the location of the keys rather than meaning almost :)
<eihrul> and if i start from the wrong key accidently i fuck up
<eihrul> cross your fingers :)
<eihrul> "startup.test()"
<liar> is the info correct?
<eihrul> the ram is
<eihrul> but the speed isn't
<eihrul> it says 81 MHz
<eihrul> this thing is only 20
<liar> damn
<eihrul> or thereabouts
<liar> is it intel?
<eihrul> "Unknown 486"
<eihrul> but i'm not sure what processor this thing has... it's really old, i bought it used :)
<eihrul> and you can't exactly open the thing up and take a look
<liar> well there are 2 kinds of 486's: ones with cpuid and ones without
<liar> yers doesnt have cpuid thats why it says "unknown"
<eihrul> that'd probably be why it's an sx :)
<liar> i can open my notebook
<eihrul> i can on my newer ones
<eihrul> but this one is REALLY old :)
<liar> i think my 486sx33 has cpuid 
<eihrul> the only way to open it is crack the plastic
<liar> and i think i one of my 486dx66 doesnt
<eihrul> man, why'd i even bother writing my kernel in C?
<eihrul> not having to declare variables kicks butt
12:10am
<liar> oh did the cursor work?
<liar> was it under the red info or after the green >
<eihrul> the monitor is monochrome :)
<eihrul> so i wouldn't know
<liar> did it have a blinking cursor?
<eihrul> nope
<liar> hmm
<liar> i have no idea why it doesnt work, i stole the code right out of this book :)
<liar> maybe ill complain to the publisher that their code doesnt work
<eihrul> steal the linux code :)
<eihrul> hrmm... is it possible to delimit parts of a hexadecimal numbers at all?
<eihrul> writing/reading long hexadecimal numbers gets tedious sometimes without breaks in them
<liar> huh?
<eihrul> i.e. Ada let's you put a _ anywhere in the text of a number
<eihrul> and the compiler simply ignores the _
<eihrul> so you can separate parts of the number for readability
<liar> uhh, NO
<liar> nasm dont do that
<eihrul> damn, i wish it did :)
<eihrul> maybe i'll send in a patch
<liar> is it to an instruction?
<eihrul> eh? don't follow your question :)
<liar> the biggest number is 0ffffffffh
<eihrul> but it'd be a more readable big number if it was: 0ff_ff_ff_ffh
<liar> hahaha, no it wouldnt
<liar> maybe 0ffff_ffffH
<eihrul> even more so
<eihrul> but you need atleast one _ in there :)
12:20am
<liar> have u tried retro?
<eihrul> nope
<liar> i wonder if he enables the hardware cursor
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12:30am
<liar> night
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12:40am
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<netghost> hello???
<hcf> hi
<abi> hola, hcf
<netghost> anyone cares to tell me where the tunes project stays???
07:10am
<hcf> stays?
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<overfien> y0 y0 y0
<hcf> overfien: have u by anychance hung in efnet's #asm?
<overfien> yeah a long time ago.. not recently that i remember.. but possibly
<hcf> overfien: i could tell by ur use of 'y0'
<overfien> hehe :)
<overfien> do anyone here know the init string to put a modem in passive mode, so that it can demodulate data played into it?
<hcf> nope
<overfien> damn :( brb
<netghost> modem:I do not know you can do that...mayeb if you look into modem manual!!
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<netghost> fare: please care to chat to me for a while???
<netghost> fare: please care to chat to me for a while???
<netghost> fare: please care to chat to me for a while???
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on netghost
<netghost> fare: are you the initiator of tunes????
<netghost> fare: are you the initiator of tunes????
<netghost> hello???
<netghost> hello???
<netghost> hello???
<overfien> look in the modem man wtf :P
<hcf> netghost: dont fucking spam us
<hcf> s/spam/flood/
07:20am
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<overfien> hmm..
07:50am
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* fare/#Tunes is back
!lilo:*! ba
!is:*! moooo
<fare> ...not for long...
!NickServ:*! lilo used GETPASS on javakilla
<eihrul> 'lo
11:40am
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<Crimson> eihrul: yo!
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on eihrul
<Crimson> AlonzoTG: mirc? ;)
12:30pm
<AlonzoTG> om
<eihrul> lo
<fare> hi
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12:40pm
<eihrul> hrmm
<Fare> yes?
<Fare> have you read those articles about PCLSRing?
<eihrul> part of it
<Fare> are yo uconvinced that there need be only finitely many kernel stacks, not one per thread?
<eihrul> but at signifigant difficulty it looked like
<eihrul> because you have to restart system calls if they fail
<Fare> no, not a difficulty, just a discipline.
<Fare> eihrul: it depends; you may return an exception, too
<Fare> but you mustn't be interrupted in the middle of nowhere.
<Fare> did you read my further article on "soundness"?
<eihrul> not yet :)
<Fare> maybe thatll give you a deeper point of view on the problem
<Fare> or maybe not
<eihrul> well there's the aspect that a process's timeslice is actually large
<Fare> not sure what you mean
<eihrul> compared to the amount of time it might take to execute a system call
<eihrul> so the process would infrequently get pclsr'd rather than frequently?
01:00pm
<Fare> you may have tail recursive system calls, such that the state of the call may be encoded in user-space registers; so that you may interrupt the call, anyway
<Fare> in the middle of it, yet have a legal user state.
<Fare> the important point is not the rollback rollforward or interrupt nature of the implementation, but the fact that you always have a legal user state when you need one.
<eihrul> so you could even hide the pclsry nature of the call itself behind the user stub? :)
<Fare> if you want; although that'd be a lossy attitude
<eihrul> but the other problem becomes my message passing model
<eihrul> or not rather mine i should say, but the one i'm using
<eihrul> if the process targetted by the sending process is not ready to accept a message yet
<eihrul> it's blocked
<eihrul> so it's state needs to be saved somewhere :)
<eihrul> would blocking be unacceptable in this case?
<eihrul> would any of these answers be in any of the literature you suggested that i might have ignorantly overlooked?
01:10pm
<eihrul> umm, hello?
<Fare> no, the sender is blocked.
<Fare> or the monitor has special queues
<eihrul> that's what i said
<eihrul> although my use of english probably was ambiguous there
<eihrul> "it's blocked" meaning the sender
<eihrul> if not in a kernel stack, where do i save the state of the blocked process? :)
01:20pm
<eihrul> abi: PCLSRing?
<abi> rumour has it PCLSRing is at http://www.vsf.cape.com/~emergent/pclsr.htm
<Fare> in the thread state block
<Fare> just like a TSS.
<Fare> only, with proper conventions, you might need save less stuff
<eihrul> that's effectively all i use my kernel stacks for now
<Fare> allocate thread state on heap
<Fare> or in proper regions, but not in stacks
<Fare> since the scheduling is usually not FIFO
<Fare> s/FIFO/LIFO/
<eihrul> what if i did something tricky... like:
<eihrul> pointer the esp0 of the TSS to where the TCB state is stored
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<eihrul> hate when that happens
01:30pm
<eihrul> did you get my last two messages?
* eihrul/#tunes sighs.
<Fare> TCB stuff?
<Fare> hum, sounds complicated, but why not.
<Fare> It still means one kernel stack per task
<Fare> which might (or not) be overkill
<eihrul> it means no kernel stack per thread :)
<eihrul> seeing as the only thing i use kernel stacks for is to save thread states, i might as well use the thread state as a stack
<eihrul> and make it go both ways
<eihrul> it just means that in system calls, i can't use any stack variables
<Fare> why not just have a "thread base pointer" in some global variable
<eihrul> because: when an interrupt gate is entered, EIP, EFLAGS, et al are saved on the stack
<eihrul> not taking advantage of that would be wrong :)
<Fare> then why use interrupt gates?
<Fare> or maybe just use the minimal necessary "stack" space on a pseudo stack, and then switch to the "real" kernel stack...
01:40pm
<Fare> that would be a neat optimization
<eihrul> that's what i was thinking
<eihrul> but if i just use no stack variables in system calls
<eihrul> i can eliminate kernel stacks completely :)
01:50pm
<Fare> uh?
<Fare> what are "stack variables in system calls" ?
<Fare> have you seen the linux calling conventions? all in registeres, nothing in stack
<eihrul> i mean in the system calls themselves
<Fare> oh
<Fare> depends on what system calls.
<eihrul> but that would be very hard to do
<eihrul> but i think i could manage atleast a global stack for those
<Fare> Other "calls" might be invoking another thread (hence activating that thread's stack)
<Fare> so that the "kernel" part of the call would indeed use no stack
<eihrul> at the very least, a global stack'll do :)
02:00pm
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<ElGato> hey 
03:20pm
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<water> huh?
03:50pm
<water> atg: what's up?
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> reeding...
<AlonzoTG> lisp rocks
<AlonzoTG> =P
<water> hehe
<AlonzoTG> actually reeding is on hold...
<water> it's not enough for me, though
<AlonzoTG> playing dumb game....
<AlonzoTG> and recovering form having 4 wisdom teeth extracted...
<water> been there.. ouch
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04:00pm
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<ElGato> if i had a dollar for every weird sound i've heard from my modem, i wouldn't have a winmodem
05:10pm
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<hcf> hoy Tril
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06:50pm
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<water> hi all
>>> water [water@ppp-tnt-137.tscnet.net] requested PING 934854829 from TUNES
07:00pm
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water
<water> wtf?
<AlonzoTG> this concept of clicking on a person is totaly novel....
<water> yeah, cause i don't know what it means
<AlonzoTG> because of that it is intresting to see how people respond.
<AlonzoTG> well you click on icons...
<AlonzoTG> I want to see what happens when you click on a person...
<AlonzoTG> =P
* water/#tunes sorts AlonzoTG by date.
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<AlonzoTG> hehe
* water/#tunes almost bought a Palm Pilot IIIx today
<water> but i got this e-mail from Jecel about porting Self/R to Casio E-100
<water> decisions, decisions...
<water> hcf: do you have the address for those ECOOP'99 papers?
<water> its been a couple of weeks, though
07:10pm
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<eihrul> 'lo again
<water> ultima, hi!
<ultima> Heh, 'lo
<water> wb eihrul
<AlonzoTG> om
<water> anything new for you guys?
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07:20pm
<water> i seem to be speaking with Jecel more often lately
07:30pm
<liar> ya brix is working 
07:40pm
<water>  how much so?
07:50pm
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<water> hello, a
<a> hi
<water> are you a tuneser?
<a> no
<water> k
<a> a what?
<water> someone who hangs around the tunes project
<a> oh
<a> what is the project about?
<ultima> music
<eihrul> mp3's
<water> abi: tunes?
<abi> somebody said tunes was http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated
<a> Ok
<water> well, something like that, anyway :)
<ultima> Tunes is a database for organizing mp3's and CD's and tapes and stuff
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08:00pm
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<hcf> water: u here?
<water> yep
<hcf> http://ecoop99.di.fc.ul.pt/techprogramme/workshops.html
<water> thanks
08:40pm
<hcf> also, icuc, http://www.cs.unibo.it/~gaspari/www/papers.html
<water> not bad
08:50pm
<water> brb, you talkative ones
<water> ;)
* eihrul/#tunes sneezes.
09:20pm
* hcf/#tunes farts
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<water>  back
<water> geez. you all must have missed me ;)
<water> quick survey: who got the impression that Fare was kissing up to that professor in his recent uK e-mail posts?
<hcf> water: how goes ur 'smalltalk on handheld' saga?
<water> i almost bought a palm pilot today
<liar> water: u should have, they are nice toys
10:00pm
<water> yes, but i also was looking at this nice Casio E-100
<water> which would have handled smalltalk (or self) much better
<liar> u dont need smalltalk or self
<water> why not?
<liar> if u want self just get a newton
<water> but no one sells newtons
<water> and how is self for the newton?
<liar> apple used a language simliar to self
<water> you mean dylan or something?
<liar> its been dead so long i dont remember 
<water> there must be a newton faq somewhere
<liar> btw u werent looking at a pilot today
<water> explain
<liar> pilot was the model name before the III
<water> well, yeah
<water> Palm IIx, whatever
<liar> some really old ones, pilot, pilot pro, III, IV, V
<water> Palm IIIx, whatever
<liar> i have a pilot pro and love it
<water> k, found the faq
<water> the problem is that the casio has 16mb memory and a 131mhz mips processor
<water> (yeah, battery life sucks, but it's rechargeable)
<liar> but whats its battery life?
<hcf> abi: newton faqs are at http://techlinks.hypermart.net/newton/links/FAQs/
<liar> i replace my batteries about 4 times a year
<liar> and i use it everyday
<eihrul> wow...
<eihrul> 4 years is quite a bit long
<water> i don't doubt it, but will it run a good language like smalltalk well?
<eihrul> er oops :)
<eihrul> brain fart, i read that wrong
<eihrul> no wonder
<liar> eihrul: read it again
<liar> i dont need it to run smalltalk
<eihrul> i can dream...
<liar> the palm os is nicely done for what i need it for
<water> sure, but that's not the only reason that i want a pda
<water> i want it to be able to adapt to what i want it to do
<eihrul> liar: most arithmetic operations having no overflow should reset the CF, right?
<liar> i can plug it into my cell phone and browse web pages, telnet, ftp,...
<liar> email
<water> i would only use email in that sense
10:10pm
<water> hcf: your newton faq link doesn't work
<hcf> oh, sorry
<water> actually, it's very close
<liar> hcf: u have disappointed us with yer failure to get a working url
<eihrul> liar: eh?
<liar> hcf: leave now!! :)
<water> http://techlinks.hypermart.net/newton/links/FAQs/
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<water> n/m, it's the same, somehow
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<water> wb
<water> i can't find anything in the faq's about a computer language, except for one reference to bytecodes
<water> there's another reference to GC
<water> and it refers to main memory as the heap
<eihrul> liar: thank's for the non-answer, i found it :)
<hcf> water: search comp.sys.newton
<water> l
<water> k
<hcf> water: perhaps jecel would know
10:20pm
<hcf> water: icuc, http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~schoedl/projects/NewtonScript/index.html
<water> a-ha!
<hcf> ns isnt self-like is it?
<water> it's a prototype-based object authoring system, so in that sense, yes it is
<hcf> oh, perhaps tis, i see mentions of 'slots'
<water> The language design was influenced by LISP and SELF, a prototype-based language developed at Stanford university and published in 1988. 
<liar> ya newton uses slots
<liar> told ya :)
<liar> eihrul: eh?
<water> not bad, but where in heck can i find an onld newton?
* water/#tunes looks to eBay for answers
<hcf> abi: newtonscript is at http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~schoedl/projects/NewtonScript/index.html
* water/#tunes left clicks on "bid"
<water> actually...
<liar> how much?
<water> various prices for the different models
<water> the highest is $560
<liar> ouch
<liar> does that include the keyboard?
<water> yes
10:30pm
<water> it's in 'mint' condition, the owner claims, and the picture of it seems to agree
<liar> he got the picture off the box :)
<water> no, it's definitely not from a box
<hcf> water: icuc, http://diwww.epfl.ch/w3lco/pub/Newton/
<water> ooh
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<water> hmm... distributed newton
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10:40pm
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<hcf> water: icuc, http://lglwww.epfl.ch/Team/DBS/ProjectDescription.html
<water> k
<hcf> i'm gettin really sick of seeing 'Object-Oriented' everywhere
<water> hehe
<water> why? :)
<hcf> the horse is dead
<water> m
<hcf> ppl will beat it
<hcf> s/will/still/
<water> newtonscript looks pretty pascal-ish
<hcf> syntax also mentioned as being BASIC-ish
10:50pm
<hcf> related to above url, http://lglwww.epfl.ch/Team/JH/thesis/thesis_overview.html
<water> hmm
<hcf> http://cuiwww.unige.ch/~hulaas/
<water> k, no more petri net stuff, please
<hcf> the last one was ment as petri plus the person's other research/papers
<water> right
<water> even so
<hcf> agents, etc
<hcf> ok
<hcf> i was done w/ him anyway
<water> k
<liar> heh
11:00pm
<hcf> http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~karel/
<liar> ugh i just found an incompatiblity in my api
<water> not really surprised
<liar> oh good it can be easily fixed
<water> that's good
<liar> burned up a few brain cells with that one
<hcf> liar: but the fix will cause 3 more bugs
<water> lol
<liar> no the fix will make it a tid bit slower
<liar> but that ok, just another thing for me to optimize later
<water> the continuing habit of hackers to create problems to solve
<liar> heh
<water> you think i'm not deadly serious?
<hcf> water: which conferences are most relevant to ur work?
<water> kr, ilc, ecoop, ...
<water> there are some others
11:10pm
<hcf> water: any trouble finding e- versions of papers from those from past years?
<water> i haven't delved too much into them, because i find their ideas to usually be unhelpful
<hcf> oic
<water> my work is way too damn eclectic
<liar> ok problem fixed
<hcf> ok further bugs induced
<liar> no, i just changed a couple numbers and added a mov
<liar> it shouldnt add any bugs
<liar> my code is nicely documented so i can do stuff like that without screwing it up :)
11:20pm
<hcf> water: still here and feel like dealing w/ urls?
11:40pm
<water> kinda
<water> depends on the subject matter
<hcf> hits on 'behavioral reflection'
<water> sure
<hcf> http://solimoes.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva/guarana/docs/desimpl-html/desimpl.html
<water> yeah, i remember that stuff.  meta-object combinators
<water> like aop, but more general in nature
<hcf> http://www.emn.fr/cs/research/teams/object/tools/neoclasstalk/publications/oopsla96ws/NeoWS.html
11:50pm
<hcf> abi: Moostrap is a Self-like language with behavioral reflection, article at ftp://ftp.emn.fr/pub/info/mulet/Articles/isotas93.ps.Z
<hcf> water: can u read french?
<water> not without babelfish or a lot of transliteration to spanish
<water> abi: osweb?
<abi> no idea, water
<water> abi: os web?
<abi> water: i haven't a clue
<hcf> abi: osweb is at http://www.osweb.8m.com/
<water> abi: os web is the best place to find operating system information at http://osweb.8m.com/
<hcf> abi: osweb?
<abi> osweb is at http://www.osweb.8m.com/
<hcf> damn
<water> heh
<hcf> abi: forget osweb
<abi> hcf: I forgot osweb
* hcf/#tunes presses water's up arrow twice then enter
<water> abi: os web is the best place to find operating system information at http://osweb.8m.com/
<abi> i already had it that way, water.
<water> k
<abi> somebody said k was a function-making function.
<water> abi forget k
<abi> water: I forgot k
<water> (and combinatoric logic, too, please)
<water> it tends to nauseate me
<water> :P
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0817
IRC log ended Tue Aug 17 00:00:01 1999