IRC log started Wed Aug 4 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0804 -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp04.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp04.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us814.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp04.lvdi.net]) !ChanServ:*! lilo used GETPASS on channel #e.themes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lucas.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is carter.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from carter.openprojects.net) -:- carter.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(54)] 15% -:- [global users on irc(149)] 41% -:- [invisible users on irc(214)] 59% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 4% -:- [total users on irc(363)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(33)] (avg. 11 users per server) -:- [total channels created(115)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !carter.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 77 (76 clients) !carter.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by Fare [Mon Aug 2 09:40:37 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:5)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ Mr_Wrong ] [ Plundis ] [@Tril ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.120 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us107.javanet.com] has joined #tunes abi: urlmon is at http://source.syr.edu/~jdimpson/urlmon/ 08:10am -:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes -:- ElGato [dave@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes hoy ElGato 09:40am hello how are ou? you rather -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes 09:50am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us107.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us305.javanet.com] has joined #tunes * ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] -:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (ElGato has no reason) -:- Netjoined: bear.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes * Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Wed Aug 4 18:07:00 1999 -:- Roscine_ [rosc@gnzl-as8-38.eatel.net] has joined #tunes -:- Roscine_ [rosc@gnzl-as8-38.eatel.net] has left #tunes [] -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [10:50am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us305.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- smkl [sami@MLXXVII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[MLXXVII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- smkl [sami@MLXXVII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- sham_ [sr@phila-dialup168.nni.com] has joined #tunes -:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- ElGato [dave@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes i have a question about ersistance; could someone help me out? persistance rather maybe btw, never ask to ask. its damn annoying do persistant systems have a dedicated partition like swap spaces? if u want its not needed tho btw, i got a microphone but im currently downloading something else so i can't get roger wilco right n0w in a persistant system everything is auto saved so if u need space u can just mark the pages as not present and then load another object into its space i see in a vm system u need to write the page out to disk and then load something new into memory so persistence can be faster i'd think with enough memory it would slow things down unless the system has been really loaded down and hasnt had time to save alot of stuff plus in a vm system u end up saving code to swap and then loading it back in, in persistence code never changes so it is never saved back to disk 02:40pm * liar/#tunes is GONE ( gone ) sure you are blarg bbl 02:50pm * ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] y0 sham what's with the new nick? nothing really i just like "sham/shamino" better it's from a really good RPG uh huh better than Fallout i might add ;) :P im gonna go do some stuff now later 03:20pm -:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (Read error to Mr_Wrong[adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: EOF from client) "Well, I'm dating again, which is exciting cause I'm married" 03:30pm ElGato did you ever date someone? uh yeah sorta 03:40pm so did you get your new computer? yeah into the linux hacking scene now? :) i still need to get a linux distro though * ElGato/#tunes wants to go play rb6 now bubye rainbow 6? uh huh you're a warez leecher now aren't you if you call mp3's and cd burning warez, i guess so er burning cds heh burning warez hah well playing games is probably more fun than coding for you nah it's just well i haven't had a great week i've been morning the death of my dearest cat :( heh you're a sentimental person elgato have you tried BeOS? hah no nor will i probably ever BeOS is for the best, windows is for the rest =) i guess i'll just hyave to help change that then won't i? root@nebb:~# telnet 209-68-229-44.dialup.cust.tfb.com Connected to 209.68.229.44 hmm? BeOS R4.5 login: wtf??? 03:50pm ehheeh you must be running BeOS :) yeah i lied im a l33t be hacker infact i wrote the majority of the kernel you got me :\ hehe -:- sham_ [sr@phila-dialup168.nni.com] has left #tunes [] 04:00pm -:- SignOff liar: #TUNES (Ping timeout for liar[p0wer.qzx.com]) -:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes heh im sucking in online chess 05:00pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ....) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes anyone know where i can find information of various page allocation schemes? no. ask on os-help? tried every search engine 05:30pm eihrul: in this channel and turns up either junk or references to the linux page allocator, which i've already looked at maybe look for how BSD's do it i'm looking for more of descriptions of various algorithms so i can evaluate things before i just start implementing it i'm sure someone knows but not me, like i said you should post to os-help@tunes.org 05:40pm scared :) everyone gets flamed out the wazoo there ignore Fare or you can just make one up, then someone will undoubtably suggest a better one once your system becomes known. it's more of a personal project try liar oh my three is a rather large netsplit on efnet s/three/there 05:50pm -:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (ElGato has no reason) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us337.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- sham_ [sr@phila-dialup234.nni.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org]) -:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes * Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Wed Aug 4 18:07:00 1999 -:- SignOff sham_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org]) -:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Plundis[chaosdev.org]) -:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes * Plundis/#tunes is gone. Gone since Tue Aug 3 18:38:00 1999 -:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes * Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Wed Aug 4 18:07:00 1999 -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from sterling.openprojects.net [07:54pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com sterling.openprojects.net -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us337.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #Tunes -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [08:11pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us337.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #Tunes -:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #Tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by irc.linux.com -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us337.javanet.com]) -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes people hi lo 10:30pm hey eihrul :) am finally starting to implement kernel some your own? cool hope you're not making Yet Another Bootloader or Yet Another MicroKernel :) nope, going to use grub but i am making YAMK :) neat program (grub that is). i dislike the multiboot standard; quite short-sighted and not safe; but grub is good. hehe.. why a microkernel? just because it's a good way to learn about the hardware and to broaden my programming horizons in general :) no.. i mean - why a microkernel and not another organisation of system :) i certainly am not going to tell you not to toy with system code :) simply because the microkernel design is cleaner 10:40pm i don't know.. all "2nd generation" ones if any, moved back half of the things that were in servers, back into the kernel, because message passing is slow :) since all the parts of the system are decoupled, it's very easy to replace them... and it just seems the more OO way to go :) i'm not going for speed here so having 3 calling conventions (server->kernel, server->server, server->network) is not what i'd call clean :-) since i'm not even planning on making this a serious OS i just want to get something half useable to toy with, and that's it :) well, it can be decoupled even if they aren't all processes in their own memory space, like.. components :-) yeah.. i'm not telling you to do any other way, i'm just curious :) if not a microkernel, what else is there? we already have a million monolithic systems :) well, "microkernel" to me, means a small monolithic kernel and then a lot of servers, each in its own address space, gravitating around it you can seperate components of your system without always forcibly using different address space, or even control threads, for them, when not needed. or let the user decide just policies :) yep... suppose you could but the microkernel is conceptually easier to learn with :) oh, i'm not saying you have to change your mind :) maybe i'll try a pseudo-monolithic system next time around, but microkernel just seemed easier for me because it's a good way to avoid writing driver subsystems :) yeah.. i understand :) do it the way you like. i'm just curious about your motivation of writing an uK rather than something else :) well, you'll still have to write a few, unless you reuse L4, mach or chaos servers well, there's not much chaos servers true.. just the basics, but it can be timesaving for tests :) since i still have yet to finish my IPC implementation in chaos :) -:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (leaving) mach servers are pretty pathetic i was thinking of maybe trying to recycle some code from the Hurd L4 servers are nice i guess, but L4 itself is quite hairy although very fast :) yeah.. the hurd is based on mach the interface to L4 is HORRID well, GNU Mach(tm)(r)(c) yeah, i know. it's designed to be fast, but only for venusians :) cool functionality, but horrible horrible ways to express it :) 'zactly :) looks like code that has been factored into an API _afterwards_, rather than before implementation. you could look at it that way... because from the implementation notes at the back, i think thtat's what actually happened! hehe.. i didn't read the implementation notes. it's just how it looked to me ah well, i guess writing is rewriting, until we have a system like Tunes :-) they concatenated many functions into the ones that are there now like thread_switch, task_new er thread_ex_regs i mean :) i_don't_like_underscores_in_function_names() :) 10:50pm then again, iDontLikeWeirdCapitalizationSchemes it's like hungarian notation gone wrong if hungarian notation can actually go worse hehe.. i don't like hungarian notation either. well, m$ uses it, and you see how reliable their code is if not capitalization, underscores, or hungarian, what else is there? pictographs? I use ThisIsAFunction(), thisIsAVariable, THIS_IS_A_DEFINE, this_is_a_typedef. Lets you see quickly what you're manipulating. but it's just me :) lol.. that too. i use underscores for function names, and capitalization for variables, all capitalization for macros ah well, as long as you have a convention of sorts makes variables and functions way more discernable after so many years of coding in both, i kind of made a compromise :) we're seeing people today (at my company that is) that are creating a company aimed at producing robots like the AIBO, that want to use clementine. that could be really neat. or either, i should say yeah, as long as you stick to a convention :) would be fun to have one of those for home use i know.. the 6 guys creating the company are all PhD's in robotics, microelectronics, maths and computing. I think they can succeed :) And that's such a neat vehicle for the OS :-) "Even my dog uses Clementine!" * eihrul/#tunes cackles. lol.. pretty much it'd just be cool to have a robot dog in the entry hall at suntech ;) if you could just hook up the correct equipment you could sort of reverse potty train the thing :) 11:00pm haha.. um, if they make a robot dog for us, i'd rather just have it sit around and play, than go potty :) so are you planning on making a better/different uK, or just write one for learning? rather simple it's hard to make a better/different microkernel anyway i don't know.. i'm not a big supported of microkernels, but L4 shown the way of speed :) but yeah i understand. do you plan on making a booting system, ie. enough functionality to start a shell and some programs? yeah... make just enough to run some multiboot servers you can't go that much more extreme than L4 you can't go that much more bloated than mach and there's a lot of microkernels already in the grey area so i can only at this point just make a clone of features i like from others :) hehe.. true. so you're planning on porting/writing a simple shell and starting some command-line programs? maybe a small vga server ala X11, but using messages and perhaps a RAM fs server no physical fs tho? 11:10pm i could try i guess but that's simply a luxury :) mm.. well, that's kind of useful for storing information ;) what did you write so far? just some memory management things so far and planned out a small kernel api and mostly what i planned to implement in chaos, but just adapted for my stuff ahh.. IPC and stuff? i saw you implemented that for them, even if i still can't get anything out of their anoncvs * eihrul/#tunes has CVS write. :P i don't have cvs write either; i can't even _read_ :) could send you tarballs of my latest tree if you want if you want to, sure, that'd be nice :) ta :) 11:20pm ugh why do i get a million errors assembling after i change a couple lines of code ran the code through a C compiler? *duck* whoa, someone died of caffeine overdose :) that could be me. i had two coffees and i've been up for 1 hour person in question took a little under 90 caffeine pills man i went to this mcdonalds out in some hicksville today and got a super sized meal the stinking frys could feed a huge family liar: "super truckdriver special" ? they charge you enough for them you better damn well get a lot of them i avoid mcdonalds or any fast food for that matter, like the plague. the fry container was 9" tall and had frys spilling out grease dripping out the bottom too? :) eihrul: even I am not that insane (re: caffeine pills) and they charge the same price as the city mcdonalds charge well, it was a community college student... who knows and the drink was like 100oz * eihrul/#tunes has bad memories of a 36 ounce slurpee. cannot imagine how long you'd be waiting in the bathroom with such a beast heh maybe hicksville doesnt charge much for the land so mcdonalds can serve more but they should tell city ppl not to buy super sized crap that's what you get for not heeding the commercials ah crap i woulda had brix bootin tonight if i hadnt gone and changed the data structures for events and semaphores liar: you were supposed to send me an image :P 11:30pm core: oh was i suppose to work on brix? :) liar: i don't know, in "exchanging images" i understood that i gave you one like i did, and then you'll give me one :-) ya u will get one as soon as i update all the semaphore and event code to the new data structure hope so, the only one i have doesn't make it easy to know how much of brix is working, as it just displays one char to the screen :P liar: ok.. whenever that is :) hey 636, or whatever it is, displays more than one char it says "welcome something" well, the interaction with the user is still a little limited :-) 8 little bits for man, 1 giant character for mankind! eihrul :) 636 has about 25% of the kernel working is brix interactive now? it created an object that had the text in it and then called the code that requested the text screen memory and displayed the text this next version has all the thread management crap done, semaphores, events,... all done but does it have interaction of some kind? just the kernel hooks arent done if i add the keyboard stuff then yes ah i have always had the keyboard stuff done but with events i couldnt use it er without i thought you got events done? i also have floppy and console crap events are now done well they were, and then i changed the data structure ah you mean your events data structure is public? the resource tracker, semaphores and events all share the same space now nooo oh, you're doing it all in assembler, i forgot :P its not totally asm i have lots of macros that look like C mm.. not sure the 3 coffees will compensate waking up at 5:45 AM cause of girlfriend /P 11:40pm liar: yeah, but it makes it easier to break code when changing data structures, in assembler.. i'd know :-) coffee is bad for u drink water i drink water all day water is disgusting eihrul: drink bottled water i consume 1 1/2 bottle every day :) that's usually even worse but usually 4-5 coffees too. the tap water here usually tastes somewhat better, but still pretty bad i consume about 60oz of water a day nothing else? i don't know how much 60oz makes :P i drink about 2 liters a day. 60oz of liquid isn't that much bah that's about 5 cans of coke :) must be why i have heat strokes all the time :) bah, coke is bad. if it's for the caffeine, coffee is better :) tis better than water :) jolt and unlike coffee, there's no preparation time eihrul: the 6 pieces of sugar/glass is kind of scary. eihrul: i like preparing coffee. or using a method on my girlfriend like PrettyPlease() . core: can says 13% of your allotted daily dosage core: so that's only about 65% day at 5 cans :) eihrul: i drink a lot; if i drank coke for water, i'd be 200 lbs :P what can't PrettyPlease () do? it gets you coffee and keeps your code from crashing! eihrul: did u know that coke is used to dissolve the corrosion off battery terminals? eihrul: do u know what it does to yer stomach? liar: carbon coke or like, carbonate coke? :) eihrul: no, PrettyPlease() is a method she implements and that I use, like PrettyPlease (ACTION_PREPARE_COFFEE_FOR_ME); :) eihrul: since i have two left hands, it's better she does it, anyway. liar: well seeing as it's acid, it can't be all that good but it's damn good acid :) heh stomach fortunately has a lower pH than coke. it also gives u bad breath i never go outside so not much of a problem :) unless my computer develops a sense of smell i'm quite healthy for a programmer. it also gives u gas gas is fun... how would we burp without it? the other kinda gas :) i rarely get that i just think about Mach and get gas. core: who doesnt? liar: mmm, hurd developers? :) how can they call that thing a microkernel? hah ok, i really need to dash to work. see you soon, or maybe even there in a few mins :-) -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (vroom) ugh, i promised myself i would goto bed an hour ago. promises are made to be broken 11:50pm tomorrow will be about my 600th consecutive day late to work cya what do you earn? overtime? eh? do they award you longer work hours for your efforts? :) i can work any hours i want i make the rules and i get a hefty bonus too then how can you be conceivably late? well i use to go in around 7am now its around 10:30-11:00 so its late but it's still always early as well, since you have no hours ya but i get all those ppl that make fun of me for coming in at 11 and leaving at 2 stuff like "gee why did u even come to work today..." they're just getting there 20 hours late look at it that way eh? 11 + 20 == 7 in hours anyway uhh ok :) oh hey i thought u were part of chaos? i am so why yer own uk? just for kicks and because i don't completely like their coding style :) heh, i dont like anyones coding style thats why i work on brix alone [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0805 IRC log ended Thu Aug 5 00:00:00 1999