IRC log started Fri Jul 16 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0716 -:- stacho [stan2el-so@212.56.1.107] has joined #tunes hello 12:30am -:- stacho [stan2el-so@212.56.1.107] has left #tunes [] -:- adam0220 [user6823@204.st-louis-143-144rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has joined #Tunes hi al all alll hello???? -:- adam0220 [user6823@204.st-louis-143-144rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has left #Tunes [] 02:30am -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-243.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-243.tscnet.net]) -:- rOcKY [user4077@193.1.182.195] has joined #Tunes -:- rOcKY [user4077@193.1.182.195] has left #Tunes [] -:- MVillopll [zcw22@hidden-jhb.sdn.co.za] has joined #Tunes hiya 05:40am -:- SignOff MVillopll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for MVillopll[hidden-jhb.sdn.co.za]) -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from sterling.openprojects.net [06:14am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff abo: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abo[brown01.nada.kth.se]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-204-161.s542.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from asimov.openprojects.net [07:35am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com asimov.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes !irc.linux.com!! Received :sterling.openprojects.net SERVER carter.openprojects.net from sterling.openprojects.net !?! -:- hcf [nef@209.94.148.194] has joined #tunes oh god, he's using onelist :( 07:50am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us935.javanet.com] has joined #tunes * Fare/#Tunes subscribes to s_synergy, but feels like unsubscribing soon -- I hate SPAM -:- smkl [sami@CML.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes rid of jdl!? why didnt start the mlist on bespin? s/start/he start/ because he's nuts? or was afraid to ask? tril said he could, didnt he? or wanted to say "this is mine, all mine!" sure Tril always said bespin was open to all open projects (although not forcibly the best place for big projects) * Fare/#Tunes is sorry not to have a serious understandable paper on the PCL site abi: PCL is Poly-Contextural Logic at http://www.techno.net/pcl/ 08:20am theres no pre-existing open-projects-brainstorming mlist or something? hcf: there's gnu.misc.discuss ;-> ^^^ real _evil_ grin but thats mostly gnu i mean ~gnu-bias-free -:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes eHoy eStormy 08:30am hi * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations eStormy!" :-) (nowadays, it's more like bsd.usual.flame) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) 08:40am -:- adik [user3514@bhd5-Arc1-s32.mtl.colba.net] has joined #Tunes hi -:- adik [user3514@bhd5-Arc1-s32.mtl.colba.net] has left #Tunes [] 08:50am -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes Fare, smkl: " In fact, there's an entire OS written in ML", what os is this? >>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us935.javanet.com] requested PING 932141309 from TUNES 09:10am * hcf/#tunes is a little lag'd >>> eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] requested VERSION from #Tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-204-161.s542.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-216-62.s62.tnt3.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (FULL THROTTLE!!!) Fare: there?\ hum thread.start_new_thread(thread_remote_input, (big_win)) TypeError: optional 2nd arg must be a tuple * eStormy/#Tunes growls. 10:10am Fare | anyone: in perl (and likely other PLs): $foovar, &barsub. whats the term for the '&','$', etc chars. type sifnifiers? man perlsyn ? i mean, non specific to perl i know, perl calls em 'sigils', tho its probly not in the docs yet what does "sigil" stand for? abi: sigil somebody said sigil was a sign or image considered magical. in perl, refers to the $@%*& characters that signify type From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]: Sigil \Sig"il\, n. [L. sigillum. See {Seal} a stamp.] A seal; a signature. --Dryden. that's it abi: sigil well, sigil is a sign/symbol/seal/signet/image considered magical. in perl, refers to the $@%*& characters that signify type anyone know plan9's pl? is 'type signifier' a common phrase for such? 10:20am iow, i'd like to know any comp.sci and pl specific terms pl? pl is probably programming language plan9 is an evil proprietary OS, anyway Fare: evilness aside ;) Fare: have any real answer for me? 10:30am Fare: why do you think join-calculus is better than async pi-calculus? 10:40am hcf: answer to which question? smkl: pi is mostly stupid smkl: well, ok, pi has some natural historical explanation i'd like to know any comp.sci and pl specific terms for type signifiers after all, it was made to generalize CCS BASIC like type pre/postfixes? smkl: yeah 10:50am -:- s_r [s_r@phila-dialup549.nni.com] has joined #tunes smkl: know any terms? hcf in your OS do you plan to meld the language and OS? no idea, s_r s_r: probly hcf: nope smkl: do ur prefered PLs not use such? hcf: i only know that BASIC and PERL use them 11:00am how do i use Mesa GL with GTK or Xlib? -:- poblano [avi890k1@ppp19-nas0.pn.nettuno.it] has joined #Tunes whats up any linux users that also like sxe, hc, punk music???? poblano: #tunes isnt for that sort of tunes like The Exploited? 11:10am -:- adik [user4677@bhd4-s34.mtl.colba.net] has joined #Tunes -:- adik [user4677@bhd4-s34.mtl.colba.net] has left #Tunes [] -:- adik [user4677@bhd4-s34.mtl.colba.net] has joined #Tunes -:- adik [user4677@bhd4-s34.mtl.colba.net] has left #Tunes [] hcf: hehehehe Then.... What kind of tunes???????????? -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System hmmmm... interesting? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@209.94.148.199] has joined #tunes wb hcf 11:40am -:- binEng [Anders@dialup208-3-21.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes hey bE hi 11:50am does anyone here make demos? 3d graphics, etc? -:- poblano [avi890k1@ppp19-nas0.pn.nettuno.it] has left #Tunes [] 12:00pm -:- Kenn [cpe2@1Cust47.tnt3.tampa.fl.da.uu.net] has joined #Tunes Fare: can you suggest an appropriate VM for the Lisp compiler? what kind of sandwiches are being eaten? Ke: an appropriate VM? well, take the same model as RScheme or Scheme48 Fa: the same VM model? RScheme has a nice design, IMO Yes. Read the RScheme docs is RScheme complete? the difference will be that we generate unoptimized machine code instead of C-interpreted bytecode RS is complete well my next question is this: if we implement a suitable VM for a nice, clean Scheme-like language, why not just implement the HLL- this the scheme-like language _is_ the core of the HLL- but should we implement R5RS Scheme or something else? we could implement R5RS Scheme, but it is no priority because we're not there yet I think R5RS Scheme is the easiest standard for which to built a module, tho a module? the base functionality? 12:10pm i think i know what you meant anyway thank you and goodbye -:- SignOff Kenn: #TUNES (Leaving) Fare how do you plan to implement the tunes HLL? by keeping a Scheme compiler open 12:20pm and you plan to use persistant hyperprogramming? eventually I want persistence asap so you'll settle for a text based source for now? ? until we've got a persistent store, we'll use CVS as a store 12:30pm -:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eStormy[rain.futuresouth.com]) -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup549.nni.com]) -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup598.nni.com] has joined #tunes * hcf/#tunes is away: (afk) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #tunes hey stormy hi que tal, eStormy get your gf on irc :) 01:20pm wife -:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (eStormy has no reason) 01:30pm -:- adik [user1436@bhd2-s37.mtl.colba.net] has joined #Tunes hi Tunes! hi everbody! -:- adik [user1436@bhd2-s37.mtl.colba.net] has left #Tunes [] 02:20pm * hcf/#tunes is back -:- binEng [Anders@dialup81-1-21.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Read error to smkl[CML.rdyn.saunalahti.fi]: EOF from client) -:- smkl [sami@CML.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes abi: clueless is at http://dazed.slacker.com/lists/clueless.html 02:50pm -:- stacho [stah@212.56.1.80] has joined #tunes heloo guys -:- SignOff stacho: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-73.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 23 hrs 45 min 9 secs hoy water hi Stacho tril! +tril stacho? i sense a disturbance in the force hi all hehe like what? water your objections to tunes seem to be being answered i hope so if only Fare and i could work together at all Fare may try to be a stronger leader, plus people are starting to migrate to other lists because they want to discuss topics that they aren't comfortable discussing on tunes' list. 03:00pm k Tril: I didn't know Fare was a leader in the first case? so, "disturbance in the force"? what's that about? i don't know, i just like saying that oh ok well, tomorrow i will be at work again, and sunday night i will be going to sea for two weeks it follows that i will not be able to develop #modtunes until i get back Tril: you know that i'm going to meet Maneesh and a professor of his in San Diego next week, right? ok well, i'm hoping to get some feedback on my idea who perhaps has a closer contact with the ideas i discuss than the Tunes members do. s/idea/idea from someone yes, that's good and not participating in the irc for two weeks will allow me to sort out ideas gained thereby and write, write, write as strange as it seems, although my ideas are simple, it takes a lot of explaining to get someone to understand them it looks like i'll have enough material for a book soon the simpler the idea, the harder it is to understand it. amazing, isn't it? i spent an hour explaining the ontology idea to _QZ in simple terms, and in the end he thought it was all about some special feature of a program i spent half an hour more convincing him that that wasn't what my idea was, but he still didn't get it and i used no technical terms at all! 03:10pm i mean, an iMac user could get it because they wouldn't pre-suppose anything about software btw, if nothing else, the #modtunes channel could simply be used to echo important statements or url's to a common information-dense log file on the server -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-196-220.s220.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hi atg om AIEEE!!!! (43 new messages) i'd like to act as 'language theorist' per Fare's mailing list proposal, but our differences prevent this now 03:20pm what I SHOULD do is make a Zope-interface to generic postgresql databases Tril: zope db poop no good? Could source code in an interpreted lang be represented and read by the interpreter as a list of references to the availible commands of the language, where the list, references and everything is itself modelled with the data structures of the very language used? -:- A1200 [a1200@modem-60.blue-streak-damsel.dialup.pol.co.uk] has joined #Tunes bineng: yes! hi anyone wanna trade mp3s? water: Arrows? Arrows are just objects whose only attributes are two references. i don't have many to trade bineng: yeah, like that * binEng/#tunes have quite a pile of mp3's bineng: that's one of the purposes of arrows -:- A1200 [a1200@modem-60.blue-streak-damsel.dialup.pol.co.uk] has left #Tunes [] i think abi's statement scared off a1200 * AlonzoTG/#tunes wishes his computer would still play his MP3s like it used to. =(((( water: but how to begin? booting the system with some things already defined? bineng: sure bineng: i think that there's a self-environment bootstrapping howto somewhere which has some similar ideas bineng: like how to bootstrap True and False, so that you can have conditionals really? do you know where? * binEng/#tunes is inventing a language that could use that bineng: no, but i remember a self discussion list thread that covered that subject roughly bineng: you should ask the self authors at sun oh, the language self? yeah I don't know self it's like smalltalk. and it's very simple not simple enough :) no classes even. Tril: well, yeah * water/#tunes is deeply looking into how to bootstrap an Arrows environment in the same way. -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hey qz The lang I'm thinking of handles classes as objects where some members are not initiated to real values <_QZ> hey water bin: hmm. bin: you should definitely look at self, then oh? ok, then bin: "Self: The Power of Simplicity" hcf: no, zope is good, but it's going to take a lot of work to get set up initially, and I've got some tunes ideas to write down first it's a paper at sunlabs where? let me look self.sunlabs.com it's a postscript file yeah http://self.sunlabs.com/papers/self-power.html actually, you should read all of them, imho (well, ok, i'm not humble :) 03:30pm are all really important? <_QZ> water: is the ps file longer than the one paragraph html page? or buy SunOS 4 so you can run the thing no, but they have some very interesting ideas hehe well, JSelf runs self on the jvm I've got ideas too... almost to many qz yah qz: longer? file size or content? <_QZ> content yes it has pictures too <_QZ> oh boy pictures :) bin: the self language should give you a measuring stick; a reference for your ideas, which sound similar ok ok I *will* read it :) especially because they have a lot of papers on optimizing a language like the one you described water: what is the problem with dealing with Fare Tril: i wish i knew. we just can't agree on anything when it comes to expressing our research optimization is not important at this stage Tril: although we agree about existing things enough what did you want a news server for? hcf suggested it i think he told me that you wanted it water suggested it recently i did so previously well, it would allow non-real-time discussion to get heavy without bothering people who aren't as interested in those threads a "pull" based mailing list i'll probably set it up if I get hired at nas, they wanted some work done on their news server as one task, so when I get familiar with INN again i can easily install it on bespin 03:40pm k -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us141.javanet.com] has joined #tunes i don't know if i told you tril, but i've determined that one (most likely the only one so far) of my terms has to be changed (Fare disagrees, as usual): "model-level reflection" -> "ontological reflection" anything that removes the word "level" is good :) well, yes, but it relates to other research s/level/layer/ # ;) not really 03:50pm -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-240.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <_water> bleh -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-73.tscnet.net]) -:- _water is now known as water <_QZ> if u were 25 and yer license says "under 21" would u renew by mail and have it saying yer still 21 when yer 29,33 & 37 or would u go in and get a new license? i wouldn't care <_QZ> good i was hoping someone would agree with me :) as long as you feel good about your decisions water: would such a lang as I spoke about be reflective? <_QZ> i'll be 38 before it doesnt say under 21 -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-28.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <_water> darn again -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-240.tscnet.net]) <_water> bin: yes, reflection would be possible -:- _water is now known as water water: anything else to talk about, i'd like to log off so I can concentrate on HLL tril: nope. thanks cool hehe * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] <_QZ> u got connection problems * water/#tunes has a baby who messes with his phone line umm. not _my_ baby :) 04:00pm -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...) om 04:10pm hah * s_r/#tunes is back from the dead [CX] water: a baby? yeah, the wife of a friend of mine is here with her kid wait a sec. he's not a friend get the baby on IRC :) s/friend/acquaintance stupid hard drive it randomly gets bad sectors hard drives are rarely intelligent :) must be because it's WD i just downloaded Mcafee pc firewall and it failed in sector write during the installation can't run anything anymore water: have you heard of BO2k? yes * water/#tunes reads /. 04:20pm dammit i hate windows i shouldn't have to worry about these things ;P water: i still am undecided on how i want to implement my OS i wonder how core used a "no kernel" design approach how can there be _no_ kernel? i haven't groked his design sr: have the compiler include cooperative scheduling and memory-management in each program so trusted apps run in kernel mode yeah, sorta actually, yes it's sad. i can talk to you about programming issues but i'm too ignorant to talk about theoretical logic well, that's your interest... programming my context is limited ;( it took me three years of reading to get where i am now water and before, you were...? and more than that of thinking about things well, ok. i've read a lot my entire life * s_r/#tunes prefers the tales of J.R.R. Tolkien :) * water/#tunes remembers scouring the encyclopedia for ideas and info about the world -:- imckenna [imckenna@sidhe.folkwolf.net] has joined #Tunes brian.rice.edu s_r: yes, he's good hello hi how is everyone>\> any real tunes here? hi imckenna good>\> no, just an open-source programming project actually "Fare" has 10 gig of mp3s online. ask him about it ok, I am connecting through my buddies' machine, he only has programming stuff. look on a different irc server whats w/ the music channel ppl today, this is the 3 /server irc.rice.edu you'll find plenty s_r: know where? cool thanks -:- SignOff imckenna: #TUNES (Leaving) heh hcf: dunno. chaotic strange attractor? ahh chaos water: have you studied chaos theory? sr: yep wow you're knowledgable well, i'm just really interested in new ideas like non-euclidean geometry when i was in the ninth grade 04:30pm * water/#tunes thinks all the time. hoo told u about it? water do you trust IQ tests? hmm so many snes roms so little time hehehe sr: trust them to do what? mmm... snes roms there just aren't many good snes roms * s_r/#tunes decides not to download any now if only those n64 emulators worked... do you trust them to represent truth? if only i had a desktop system, so i could install 3dfx and run n64 sr: what's truth? whose truth? truth of nature water buy a powerful computer and install linux * water/#tunes thinks most people have no clue as to what nature is about sr: blah! water: me included :) sr: i already have linux. you must hate linux sr: the more i use it, the more i hate it #include hehe lame water: do you prefer windows? -:- pryzby [pryzby@pryzby.mnsinc.com] has joined #tunes sr: no, but it's a brainless choice, and i don't like thinking too much about os choice -:- pryzby [pryzby@pryzby.mnsinc.com] has left #tunes [] wtf was that? where are all these people coming from? no idea the world? the world is watching ;) it? i heard it was not a fact that a theorem is true a theorem is always true in some way abi forget it water: I forgot it sr: truth is relative ya water: is that a truth? in relation to what in such case? bin: yes, but it's various kinds of truth 04:40pm bin: to various cases (infinitely many, at least) water: have you ever read 1984? yes do you have an answer to that question posed in one part of the book, the question about reality? i forget what the actual words were the only thing that is real is what i tell you or something like that i haven't read it in six years solipsism ah solipsism yeh it's just a statement Fare: did you have 10GB of mp3s online? it wasn't 10G, it's wasn't mine, and it's no more online. heh, but still? ;) a few G is MP3 real good quality? Fare: what kind of mp3s? what's a good encoder? (free software) is MP3 better than shorten? water: what is solipsism? sigh... so many q's s_r: apt-get install dict -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-48.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes hello ole hi hs hey water BUDDY fare: ole? =\ HS: hey Lenguan s_r: it's suprising how much my ideas have changed like how much they have REALLY changed HickServ: tell me your ideas now well i've gone away from it being forth like to it being lisp like i ditched the idea of low and high level code being blended :\ why? in favor of what? HS: how that, changed? A friend of mine suggested that I shouldn't be a programmer, but a meta-programmer: one who has other people program :) heh i decided to do that a long time ago 04:50pm but I want to not only be meta- but also reflective; so I must have myself program! * water/#tunes pictures Fare manipulating himself please, water! lol just joking :) stay decent! huh? water has a filthy mind umm. no