IRC log started Thu Jul 15 00:00:01 1999
<jdl> hcf: You mean where people just discuss OS/project ideas?
<hcf> jdl: yeah
<hcf> jdl: and proglang too
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0715
<jdl> hcf: Not that I know of... this is a good place.  
<hcf> not counting linux stuff
<hcf> jdl: what channel have/do u frequent?
<jdl> hcf: BTW, I wasn't trying to be insulting when I called you "god of URL's" -- I was serious, you're constantly pulling out cool URLs
<hcf> s/nnel/nnels/
<hcf> jdl: yeah, but theyre urls that commonsense cant find
<Mr_Wrong> jdl: I especially like where you say when criticized, do not assume that the critic doesn't understand your work
<hcf> commonsense can easily lead to finding the tunes glos
<jdl> hcf: Caught me :)  This is it... when I first found IRC (way back when) the channels I tried were all boring, so I never used it again until I started participating in the TUNES mailing list
<Mr_Wrong> Actually, I like the whole email
<jdl> hcf: <shrug> -- I did look before I asked you
<Mr_Wrong> Why does one need to go to the site map to find the glossary?
<Mr_Wrong> Shouldn't it be off the front page or off the faq?
<jdl> MW: Thanks :)  There's nothing wrong with the TUNES project, it's just that it's directionless...
<hcf> Mr_Wrong: its under papers too, among a millions ways to get to it
<jdl> MW: That's where I looked first :)  Didn't think to look in "papers" because the glossary doesn't seem like a paper to me
<Mr_Wrong> I usually check the faq first
<hcf> given that there r /many/ links to it on the review pages
<Mr_Wrong> That's the commonsensical place to put it, IMO
<jdl> hcf: I looked in the review subproject too
<hcf> its not my fault the site isnt intuitive for certain ppl
<jdl> hcf: No biggie, water under the bridge.
<Mr_Wrong> I don't understand the definition of abstraction in the glossary
<Mr_Wrong> Plus, the glossary is huge and appears to be at least partially politically motivated.
<hcf> its intuitive enuf for my sense of what commonsense ppl should have
<hcf> if they have such, they're out of luck
<hcf> s/have/dont have/
<hcf> whoa, odd
<Mr_Wrong> And it redefines a whole bunch of core CS terms
<jdl> MW: It is polittically motivated, the reference on the papers page says so -- www.tunes.org/papers
<Mr_Wrong> hcf:  So you're saying that I lack common sense because I don't understand your definition?
<Mr_Wrong> That's crap.
<jdl> MW: I think he means the site layout.
12:10am
<hcf> i dont help (w/ urls or whatever) ppl w/o commonsense
<Mr_Wrong> Oh!
<jdl> hcf: Okay, okay, sorry I mentioned it.
<jdl> I need to go to bed anyway... MW, thanks for the email, I'll send you a response tomorrow...
-:- SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Mr_Wrong> But the glossary itself is rather horrendous
<Mr_Wrong> And its SNR is rather low
<hcf> Mr_Wrong: bring that up w/ fare
<Mr_Wrong> Lots of stuff that seems a bit unrelated to OS design
<hcf> he did most if not all of the entries
<hcf> (afaik)
<Mr_Wrong> It looks like it was made intentionally esoteric.
<Mr_Wrong> Like writing centuries in roman numerals
<Mr_Wrong> I'm ranting, sorry.
<hcf> its semi ok
<Mr_Wrong> It just baffles me how someone can communicate when they have their own special definitions for such common terms
<hcf> just rant when ppl r here
<hcf> esply fare or tril for the topic for the glos
<Mr_Wrong> Ok, so your 'common sense' links to the glossary are useless because the glossary would confuse anyone who actually needed to read it to figure out something
<Mr_Wrong> I'm ranting for the log  :)(
<hcf> fare/tril dont necessarily read the log
<Mr_Wrong> Oh well.
<hcf> ok, take the site's nav bar
<Mr_Wrong> That's probably for the best.
<hcf> look at each link from it
<hcf> til u find "glossary"
<hcf> that to me is commonsense
<Mr_Wrong> Typically it should be semi-obvious which link to take off the nav bar to find something
<hcf> iow, dont traverse the entire site, just one layer from the nav bar
<Mr_Wrong> The usefulness of a web site is inversely proportional to the number of times you have to hit the 'back' button or the nav bar to find one piece of information
<hcf> the way fare did the glos
<hcf> is a lot like a paper
<Mr_Wrong> I've read a lot of papers, and I'm not sure what sort of paper you're comparing it to.
<Mr_Wrong> Certainly not any research papers I've read
<hcf> well, the glos aint like the sitemap is it?
<hcf> or colabboration
<hcf> or mirrors
<Mr_Wrong> Is that the first thing most people think of when they think of a glossary?  That it's a paper?
12:20am
<Mr_Wrong> Weird, after I installed acroread, xpdf suddenly started working
<hcf> we create based on how we think
<hcf> fare and/or tril did most of the site
<hcf> so it reflects him/them
<Mr_Wrong> I guess it kind of fits there.
* Mr_Wrong/#tunes is starting to think about how he would design the site if he were someone who would write a glossary like the one Fare wrote
<hcf> i told u, it ~fits
<hcf> now, choose a new topic
<Mr_Wrong> I'm reading a paper on AOP right now
12:30am
<Mr_Wrong> Wow, xpdf is way faster than acroread.  Doesn't require reinterpreting the entire page to refresh... it caches the page as a pixmap
12:40am
<hcf> abi: aop faq is at http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/projects/aop/faq-aop.html
<abi> ...but aop faq is written from an entirely different perspective...
<hcf> abi: aop faq is also at http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/projects/aop/faq-aop.html
<abi> okay, hcf.
01:30am
!HyrlikW:*! Does anyone know in linux how to have a box on a LAN that blocks ARP requests?  like if you wannted to hide a linux box on a corporate network?
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<Kaufmann> Shalom
<Kaufmann> Anyone awake?
03:00am
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<hcf> hoy Kaufmann
<Kaufmann> A miracle! Someone who's also awake!
<Kaufmann> GODDAMN sunlight blanking out my CRT
<hcf> heh
* hcf/#tunes HATES that
* Kaufmann/#Tunes has been awake for 17 hours now... if I get through to midnight, it'll be 36 straight hours of continuous uptime and consistent throughput... longer than any Windows installation in the face of the Earth.
03:10am
<Kaufmann> Dammit, I can't even use PgDn to scroll the channel list down with one hand while I cover the sun off with my other hand. Shit damn.
<hcf> no curtains?
<hcf> at one point i was putting a robe over my head and monitor, worked well ;)
<Kaufmann> LOL
03:20am
<Kaufmann> Hey, I've figured a way to shield the monitor from the sun
<hcf> hows that?
<Kaufmann> I've one of those sliding glass doors/windows to the porch (from where the sun's coming in). The slider support apparatus is made of metal, and the column with the handle is thick enough that its shadow will be almost enough to cover the entire monitor area, if I position it correctly.
<hcf> u have done well grasshopper
<Kaufmann> Thank you master
03:50am
<Kaufmann> BBL
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein. For more information regarding the good and evil of nationalism, contact Fare at OpenProjectsNet #Tunes. (Heh.))
04:10am
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!netgod:*! lets see what happens if i unplug the blue wired marked 'T1'
* hcf/#tunes sits quietly, sucking his bleeding thumb
<Fare> hcf: you typed too much with your thumb?
<hcf> no, was j/k
<hcf> fingers etc r fine
<Fare> :)
* Fare/#Tunes is printing selected papers among those collected yesterday
<Fare> hcf: I've found papers from project Verifix
<hcf> verifix?
<Fare> Lamport's TLA is very related to what I do, except he shuns any kind of internal metaprogramming
<Fare> Verifix is around http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~wg/
<hcf> icuc,
<hcf> abi: Gregor Kiczales?
<abi> i think Gregor Kiczales is at http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/members/gregor/
<hcf> abi: no, verifix is VERIFIX - Provably Correct Compilers at http://i44s11.info.uni-karlsruhe.de:80/~verifix/
<abi> okay, hcf.
06:20am
<hcf> Fare: know anything about open implementation?
<hcf> hmm, the arrow paper isnt mentioned on the sitemap's papers section
<hcf> "Currently maintained by Ultima" should be removed from the subprojects page
06:30am
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<hcf> hoy AlonzoTG
<AlonzoTG> om
06:40am
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<hcf> Fare: there?
07:30am
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* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Fare> hcf: what URL for grok?
<Fare> (jargon file or else)
<hcf> grok?
<hcf> abi: foldoc for grok
<abi> grok may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=grok
* Fare/#Tunes kisses abi
<abi> /me slips Fare the tongue
<Fare> abi: ?
<abi> no idea, fare
<Fare> abi: jargon for grok
<hcf> jargon is depreciated, use foldoc
<Fare> why depreciated?
<Fare> since it's the place where foldoc gets the definition, go to the source!
<hcf> in my opinion it is anyway, cuz
<hcf> it includes jargonfile
<hcf> and langlist
<Fare> the source is always better
<hcf> and is updated
<hcf> plus, i like the interface
08:10am
<AlonzoTG> looking
<hcf> Fare: oh dont bother explaining grok to atg
<hcf> AlonzoTG: u should know enuf to be able to look it up urself
<hcf> lazy turd
* AlonzoTG/#tunes doesn't
<AlonzoTG> I don't uze werds that I can't define off the top of me head.
<AlonzoTG> =\
<hcf> AlonzoTG: what do u do when u read words somewhere that u cant ask the author what they mean?
<AlonzoTG> If I know it everybody else knows it...
<AlonzoTG> For the rest I keep a dictionary next to my desk.
<AlonzoTG> If it is not in there then the author has no business using it.
<hcf> bull
08:20am
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<eStormy> .ustat autumn
09:30am
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* binEng/#tunes gotta go.
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( <k!14>)
<eStormy> wow, there's an active tunes list...i thought os-ideas/help was it.
09:50am
<Fare> it only waited to be resurrected
<Fare> :)
<Fare> pphew, we just avoided catastrophe!
<Fare> Thanks, Tril, for your confusing directory tree layout!
<Fare> :) :) :) :)
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10:00am
<hcf> Fare: the arrow paper isnt mentioned on the sitemap's papers section. "Currently maintained by Ultima" on the subprojects page should be changed. terms like glossary when appearing in the todo lists should my hyperlink'd
<hcf> s/my/be/
<Fare> hcf: tell that to our webpage maintainer!
<Fare> hum. Isn't it officially Beholder? ;->
<hcf> ok
<Fare> not that he has ever maintained anything... ;->
<hcf> its still sad tho
<Fare> hcf: would you like to become...
* hcf/#tunes ignores the obvious "feel free"
<Fare> feel bound to...
<Fare> "I'm not a Church numeral! I a free variable!"
<hcf> its got quotes, meaning it symbolically means any phrase u might think up to replace it
<Fare> symbolically means? You must use a Symbolic Processing Language like LISP to do that. You can't do that in C.
10:10am
<hcf> engish iz bring ur own rules
<hcf> s/eng/engl/
<Fare> s/.*//
<Fare> (another way to say "shut up"?)
<hcf> well, perhaps s/.*//g
<Fare> oh, yeah, forgot that one! :)
<Fare> so it just means "unsay what you just said!"
<hcf> aint got no cvs
<Fare> (or maybe "unsay the first thing you said!")
<Fare> hcf: cvs?
<abi> hmmm... cvs is Concurrent Version System at http://www.cyclic.com or documented at http://www.loria.fr/~molli/cvs/doc/cvs_toc.html
<hcf> got an "job" applications via non mlist mail?
<hcf> Fare: how do reflection and open implementation differ?
<Fare> they don't -- both are buzzwords abandonned by Kiczales
<Fare> ok, they do -- reflection existed before Kiczales
10:20am
<Fare> (and will exist afterwards)
<hcf> who "devised" refl? b smith?
<Fare> no, he just launched a trend
<Fare> reflection is very old
<Fare> it existed in philosophy before to exist in CS
10:30am
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<HickServ> whoa!
<HickServ> that was pretty damn weird
<HickServ> #tunes doesn't exist on lackey.openprojects.net
<HickServ> Mr_Wrong: you're from california?
<HickServ> gee i wish you people would wake up
<hcf> well, gee, ok
11:00am
<HickServ> beaver don't make fun of me
<HickServ> is fare awake or is he giving into the evils of sleep?
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<Kaufmann> Ha!
<Kaufmann> 27 hours of continuous uptime!!!!!!!
<Kaufmann> ... and counting
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> of what?
<hcf> HickServ: his likely working on his paper
<smkl> HickServ: have you heard about splits?
<HickServ> yes i have smkl
<Kaufmann> It's not too shabby for a human system
<HickServ> and i already figured that
<Kaufmann> To make matters better, after enduring a sleepless night, I traveled half the town, went to guitar class and now just kicked major ass in a school admittance test
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11:10am
<HickServ> oh so you're nef!
<hcf> HickServ: my entrances have been telling u that all long
<HickServ> well i haven't bothered paying attention to that much
<hcf> ok, so what about being nef?
<HickServ> well i thought it was trill
<HickServ> er tril
11:20am
<HickServ> ATTENTION SHOPPERS
<HickServ> WHO HERE IS FINNISH?
<Kaufmann> I've finished.
* hcf/#tunes is spent
11:30am
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<Kaufmann> YES, this is who I want to tell me what it'll take for Linux to succeed. A guy who believes "API" stands for "Advanced Programming Interface".
11:50am
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein. For more information regarding the good and evil of nationalism, contact Fare at OpenProjectsNet #Tunes. (Heh.))
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<Mr_Wrong> Hello, Alonzo
01:40pm
<AlonzoTG> my machine forgot what the ( symbol looks like! =(((((
<AlonzoTG> windoze 3.11 sucks. =(((((
<smkl> why haven't you upgraded?
<AlonzoTG> cuz I'm lame
<AlonzoTG> I need to have an alignment job done on my kar...
01:50pm
<smkl> hey Mr_Wrong. what makes you interested about TUNES?
02:00pm
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<Mr_Wrong> I'm interested in OS development in general
<smkl> ok ..
02:10pm
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<tcn> hey y'all.. full house
<tcn> ?
02:20pm
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<smkl> hello
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> WONG!!!
<Mr_Wrong> Wong?
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> Help Me Write OS!!!!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<Mr_Wrong> Oh no, it's you again.
<s_r> heh
<AlonzoTG> =(
<s_r> Mr_wrong you're apprehensive?
<tcn> hey alonzo!!
<tcn> why don't you just do it?
<AlonzoTG> I'm too lame =((((((
<AlonzoTG> not enuff $
<s_r> tcn: can I ask you a question about memory usage?
<tcn> you don't need money
<tcn> sure sr
<s_r> ok I was thinking, trying to understand how Netscape would use its memory
<s_r> well it would have to store the entire web page
<s_r> in a buffer, though? How would something like that be stored
<s_r> becauase
<s_r> you don't know how large it's going to be
<s_r> it could be 3 bytes
<s_r> or it could be kilobytes
<smkl> err dynamic memory allocation?
<s_r> a large buffer woudl be wasted
<Mr_Wrong> It probably dynamically allocates the buffer
<Mr_Wrong> Or it just reads it out of the memory cache
02:30pm
<tcn> yup
<tcn> dynamic allocation
<tcn> if it needs 3 bytes, it'll allocate 4k
<tcn> on an 80x86
<s_r> but then further allocations will be in that 4k space
* Mr_Wrong/#tunes wonders if it reallocs and doubles the size of the buffer each time to avoid too many reallocs
<Mr_Wrong> That way it could keep the space it was using contiguous
<smkl> that depends on the allocator
* Fare/#Tunes is back
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 68 hrs 10 min 1 secs
<Fare> what allocator?
<Tril> we are supposed to publicize the OS-IDEAS list here
<smkl> the allocator netscape uses
<Fare> abi: os-ideas is at http://lists.tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma/os-ideas
<Mr_Wrong> I would think that would be a big duh.
<Fare> netscape sucks.
<smkl> memory allocation also depends on the data structure used
<Fare> It's written in C.
<s_r> is the stack size and allocation pre defined before run time? or does it somehow grow in allocation?
<Fare> Javascript is an abomination
<Mr_Wrong> What language should it be written in, Fare?  Something other than what most other UNIX apps are written in?
<tcn> win9x sucks
<Mr_Wrong> Something most UNIX systems don't have a compiler for?
<s_r> Fare: how much differently could memory allocation be done among different languages? How is Forth more efficient than C in that respect?
<tcn> ML would be a good language to write Unix apps in
<AlonzoTG> tcn: thats why I run 3.11
<tcn> atg: 3.11 is worse!
<s_r> alonzo: run Windows NT 3.51, it's better than both and looks like 3.11
<smkl> there isn't a good ML with dynamic libraries though
<smkl> s_r: dynamic allocation is done runtime
<_QZ> im selling a computer: p233mmx, asus tx97 mobo, 96meg sdram, 4.3gig udma quantum, 4x cdrom, pas16, 14.4k modem, ne2000, millenium II 4meg. it dont work $300
<s_r> it's broken?
<Mr_Wrong> smkl:  Objective caml is pretty nice
<tcn> no it doesn't work
<_QZ> it boots but wont boot an os from floppy, or hdd
<AlonzoTG> DOS IS BEST!!!
<Fare> Tril: shit. I've been crooked.
<Mr_Wrong> In fact, there's an entire OS written in ML
<_QZ> AlonzoTG: want it?
<Mr_Wrong> I can't remember what it is though
<Tril> Fare: what
<Fare> I just realized I plain lost my time answering that promotion guy!
<Tril> the one who wanted us to link to his site
<Mr_Wrong> Then what does it boot from, _qz?
<smkl> Mr_Wrong: it's very nice. but it doesn't support dlls
<Tril> ?
<Mr_Wrong> It doesn't?  I thought it did.  Oh well.
02:40pm
<_QZ> Mr_Wrong: im selling it cuz i dont know what wrong with it, the hdd is brand new and works in other machines
<Fare> s_r: FORTH is not more efficient than C in that respect, although it enables you to write more efficient allocators because it's reflective.
<smkl> Mr_Wrong: there is express, but i don't think it is written completely in ML ie it uses FLUX
* s_r/#Tunes looks at the Tunes glossary
<Fare> DrScheme runs on top of the oskit!
* Fare/#Tunes feels late
<_QZ> Mr_Wrong: it detects the floppy,cdrom,hdd in the bios and accesses them for a second when it should be booting the os but then stops
<Mr_Wrong> smkl:  I have heard of that one, but I don't think that was the one I was thinking of
<s_r> Fare: what's your favorite computer language?
<Fare> s_r: the Tunes HLL ;->
<s_r> QZ: it could be a problem with the MB
<s_r> switch different parts around
<Mr_Wrong> Ooh, what applications are currently written in the Tunes HLL and what compilers are there for it?
<s_r> try a new motherboard with all the other parts
<s_r> what makes the Tunes HLL different from Forth, for example?
<_QZ> s_r: oh plus it was working fine until i moved the hdd to a machine with a faster cdrom to install win98
<s_r> well you could have damaged the motherboard or some other part in that process
<Tril> Mr_Wrong: Tunes HLL doesn't run "applications".  It should support all languages as plugins to its own dynamic compiler.
<_QZ> s-: u want it for $300 :)
<Mr_Wrong> Oh, what language plugins exist to it?
<Fare> Languages I respect (for various reasons): LISP, ML, and FORTH families; C; Perl; zsh; Oberon
<Fare> Tril: well it will eventually run applications, I hope!
<Mr_Wrong> I have to agree with Fare on everything except Perl.
<s_r> i was thinking of melding the language to the OS
<Tril> Not monolithic applications as we currently know them, though
<Mr_Wrong> Pie in the sky.
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
<s_r> Mr_wrong seems quite the cynic
<Mr_Wrong> I'm not a cynic.  This conversation fits perfectly the definition of pie in the sky.
<s_r> Tunes' very own Eyore :]
<Tril> Mr_Wrong: The Tunes HLL is the core of tunes. It's in the design phase.
<Tril> (I'm the only one designing it, and I'm slow, I know)
<s_r> Tril where can i find papers or specs on the tunes HLL?
<_QZ> Tril: are u using an existing syntax or making up yer own?
<Tril> s_R you can read some notes on http://www.tunes.org/~dem/tunes/Specifications.html and some newer ones on ~dem/tunes/spec/spec.html
<Tril> _QZ: It uses persistent hyperprogramming, so it's not a parsed text language.
<_QZ> YES
<_QZ> good choice
<_QZ> but what about syntax
<_QZ> is there a language that it resembled?
<s_r> what is persistent hyperprogramming?
<Tril> and yes, it does have a syntax, ... it resembles predicate calculus
<_QZ> hmm
<_QZ> what about idiots?
<Fare> Tril: I designing the HLL, too (or kind of) ;->
<_QZ> Fare: do u have any specs?
<Fare> Tril: this week, there has been a thread on comp.lang.lisp with a nice text on hypertext & stuff
* tcn/#tunes is finally updating the LLL page :)
<Fare> QZ: yes: make it a LISP dialect with reflection.
02:50pm
<Tril> 1999.0702:<Tril> hyperprogramming is where you make programs by connecting nodes in a persistent database to represent data or code, instead of using a text-based language
<_QZ> Fare: something like logo? :)
<Fare> QZ: the LISP dialect part is already specified (either Scheme or CL or EuLISP or ISLISP or whatever you like)
<Tril> looks like that was asked twice, adding it to the FAQ :)
<Fare> the reflection part, I'm working on it
<Fare> Tril: adding what?
<Tril> "What is Persistent Hyperprogramming?"
<Fare> ouch
<Fare> maybe rather put that in the Glossary???
<s_r> hmmmmmmm
<Fare> since it's not directly a tunes question
<s_r> persistent hyperprogramming, i should consider it
<Tril> Fare: It's not?
<Fare> and the tunes faq already points to the glossary for all its other features
<s_r> QZ: is your native BRiX language going to be based on hyperprogramming?
<_QZ> s_r: sorta
<Tril> PH is a tunes feature
<Fare> sure, add the feature to the FAQ, with a pointer to the glossary, as for other features.
<Tril> Fare: I don't want to touch that Glossary
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't like the _name_ hyperprogramming, tho
<Fare> Tril: why not???
<Fare> Tril: please do it, as for other features!
<Tril> Fare it's too big, nobody will ever read it. And it's full of your opinions
<Fare> we don't want to replicate the glossary into the FAQ!
<Fare> Tril: well, your touching the glossary will make it full of your opinoins, too!
<Fare> s/oi/io/
<Tril> Did anybody split the glossary into tiny text files yet?
<Fare> nope
<tcn> I started
<tcn> I forget why
<Tril> I want to work on my design more than I want to make zope work for review :(
<_QZ> u guys need to work on a language that is more powerful than any existing language but easier to use 
<Tril> _QZ: wouldn't that take a long time? :)
<s_r> QZ: try to switch parts with other machines, find out which piece is faulty. i might want to buy just parts of it, like a CPU or the motherboard, and would like to know what is bad
<Fare> QZ: and green with rose circles, too!
<Fare> who's calm joe? and could anyone access that jerk ledudu's page?
<Tril> i didn't try.  calm joe = JOCAML or something that you said like that
<Fare> I mean, is there a well-known character named "calm joe"?
<Fare> or was the joke completely lousy?
03:00pm
-:- Beholder [chaldea@ppp-060.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> there's Joe Cool, the character from Camel cigarette ads, probably what he meant
<tcn> joe camel?
<Tril> and probably what the acronym was meant for originally
<Beholder> hey all
<Tril> hi
<abi> bonjour, Tril
<Fare> (of course, cigarette ads are long forbidden in France...)
<Beholder> baned in Canada also
<Tril> "calm" is close to the meaning of "cool" as used in Joe Cool, so is probably translated
<s_r> tcn: do you use the stack for variables in Retro?
<Fare> abi: jocaml is at http://para.inria.fr
<Tril> Fare: Does jocaml have a camel with sunglasses logo?
<Fare> tcn: what's the current retro policy wrt threading and variables?
<Fare> Tril: I think so -- maybe stolen from some cigarette ad, too
<tcn> sr: no I use the heap
<tcn> Fare: umm.. none, I guess
<Tril> Joe camel is 80's retro
<Fare> uh?
<s_r> tcn: dynamically?
<tcn> sr: yeah
<Tril> "80's retro" is what you call people who wear jean jackets and sunglasses, like me :)
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't wear sunglasses
* Tril/#TUNES doesnt smoke, though
<Fare> good for your finances
<Tril> and for my computer equipment :)
<Fare> hum. If the price for lung cancer (and associated loss of work by ill employees) was to be paid by the cigarette makers, we would at last be free from cigarettes!
* Beholder/#tunes worked at an ISP where everyone was a chain smoker and the expensive (1/2 million $) terminal servers and such were in the same room (very small room) :9
<AlonzoTG> hehe
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> Beh: did it cause hardware problems?
<Fare> maybe increased screen cleansing rate?
03:10pm
<tcn> they were allowed to smoke inside?
<Beholder> Fare: They couldn't figure out why the $400 case fans kept failing ;)
<tcn> man, smoking indoors was banned here before ISP's existed
<Beholder> tcn:  They owned the place, they could do what they wanted.  
<tcn> (well, homes, bars, etc, are excluded)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1039.javanet.com])
<Beholder> tcn:  It was an office building not a home :(
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (no one will notice if I go AFK) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<tcn> sure a lot of people I work with smoke, but even the managers have to do it outside :)
<Fare> tcn: homes, too?
<Fare> tcn: did you test IDE w?
<tcn> are you lagged, fare? you can do whatever you want in your own home
<tcn> hang on I'll test IDE r/w in bochs
<Fare> great!
03:20pm
<Fare> Beh: have time to be webmaster, now?
<tcn> oops, I've gotta work a little harder to do ide writes :)
<Beholder> Fare: Nope, working at the moment :(
<Beholder> Fare: Any luck finding anyone yet?
<s_r> does anyone have a copy of dos4gw.exe they could give me?
<s_r> ;)
<Beholder> Sr: What for?
<s_r> some 3d graphics demos i have
<Fare> no luck
<tcn> lessee
<tcn> can't you just download it somewhere?
<tcn> try x2ftp.oulu.fi or simtel
<s_r> ok
* s_r/#Tunes goes to tenberry.com
<_QZ> wtf, i have tons of email today
<AlonzoTG> om
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<s_r> alonzo thanks
<s_r> alonzo is this virus free?
<water> hi all
03:30pm
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-:- [Users(#Tunes:12)] 
[ TUNES     ] [ s_r       ] [ tcn       ] [ water     ] [ AlonzoTG  ] 
[ Mr_Wrong  ] [ abo       ] [ Fare      ] [ smkl      ] [ eStormy   ] 
[ abi       ] [@Tril      ] 
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<water> tell you what. i'll start from your perspective
<Fare> oh, thanks a lot!
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<water> hehe
03:40pm
<water> lambda expressions alone represent deterministic structures, right?
<Fare> hum
<Fare> what do you mean by "alone"?
<water> the expressions themselves
<water> i.e. every lambda is deterministic
<AlonzoTG> I run DOS, Nobody makes DOS viii anymore! =P
<AlonzoTG> =P
<Fare> you mean, the traditional language core?
<AlonzoTG> viri
<water> sure. or church's formalism, if you will
<Fare> well, yes, it represents _pure_ _deterministic_ _higher-order_ computations.
<water> ok.
<s_r> ALonzo: switch to unix
<Fare> (and even then, there's a difference between normal-order evaluation and applicative-order evaluation)
<water> so my question is what sort of non-deterministic structure is necessary beyond that for, say, tunes? or even simpler, the average programming language?
<Fare> not sure what you mean.
<water> that's the framework we discussed earlier, essentially, yes?
<water> oh
<Fare> what do you mean by "necessary"?
* water/#tunes peruses LambdaND paper for a clue to understanding Fare's perspective and how to help it.
<Fare> and what isn't "enough" about just a disjunction construct?
<Fare> "necessary" to express *what*?
* Fare/#Tunes readily admits LambdaND is unreadable
<Fare> the Reflection'99 reviewers couldn't quite grok it
<water> well, tunes is Not just lambda, is it?
<Fare> Tunes is not pure-lisp or untyped haskell, indeed.
<water> i mean, the relationship between high-level computing structures is beyond a single first-order lambda-calc
<Fare> it is not Barendregt's plain lambda-calculus.
<water> ok
<Fare> lambda-calc is intrinsically higher-order
<AlonzoTG> SR: Unux SUcks!!!
<water> well...
<Fare> Eunuchs suck, because they can't do much more...
<water> i was thinking in terms of a system of symbols available in the same space as "first-order"
<water> hmm...
<Fare> beware the notion of "first-order"...
* tcn/#tunes stumbles upon Lojban
<Fare> even in lambda-calculi, there are several ways to look at things
<water> but then, the actual lambda-calculus is abstracted from the symbol notion
<Fare> water: sure
<tcn> hmm.. lojban reminds me of sanskrit
<Fare> water: there is a notion of meta-variable
<water> maybe i can relate a good example
03:50pm
<water> about non-determinism
<water> (i hope)
<Fare> water: when you _study_ lambda-calculus, you're _implicitly_ in an outer formalism that has its own (meta)variables
<water> in the standard first-order logic, you have two quantifiers
<Fare> "standard" ?
<Fare> you have first-order logic presentations of lambda-calculus, too
<water> Fare: ok. i get it. but i was considering an environment of lambdas as a whole
<Fare> it depends on what universe a lambda quantifies
<water> whoa
<water> hold on
<water> i'm going to talk with logic
<Fare> (type theory was originally invented to have an explicit formalization of this universe issue)
<water> i mean, within logic
<water> type theory sucks
<Fare> there are multi-universe/typed logics, too
<water> you think i don't know that?
<Fare> Bertrand Russell (or was is A.N. Whitehead?) invented Simple Type Theory to escape logical paradoxes
<water> yes, and it's a hack
<Fare> Church reinvented/reused it for his lambda-calculus
<water> right
<Fare> category theorists culminated it
<water> it's still a hack
<Fare> no, it's much more than a hack
<water> why?
<Fare> it's a deep property of logic
<water> it's an arbitrary formalism over the universe of concepts
<Fare> being formalized
<water> no way
<water> logic is an arbitrary formalism
<Fare> it's a natural formalism that, like all formalisms, can never span the whole universe of concepts, but allows to talk about large chunks of it that talk about large chunks of it, etc
<AlonzoTG> om
<water> it's still an arbitrary choice
<Fare> all formalisms are arbitrary
<Fare> all choices are arbitrary
<Fare> they need be made, anyway
<water> but this choice is arbitrary with respect to applicability to concepts
<Fare> and they may use the human mind and its surrounding universe as a (weak) reference for choices.
<Fare> water: ?
<water> which makes type theory non-deep
<Fare> ?
<Fare> what's a deep theory?
<water> "<Fare> it's a deep property of logic"
<Fare> sure. But a theory is never deep enough.
<water> first-order logic was not developed in a vacuum
<Fare> It may only suggest the depth of the concepts
<water> it is the result of history
<Fare> type-theory is such a concept that you can always deepen
<water> no. it's limited
<Fare> any specific formal theory is limited
<water> exactly
<Fare> just like with first/nth order logic
04:00pm
<Fare> (which can be seen as just a particular case of type theory)
<water> which leaves us in a loop
<Fare> "it's not much, but it's... home!"
<water> it doesn't suggest anything new, which is what i argue we need
<Fare> water: did it ever occur to you that the human mind was finite?
<water> otherwise, we'll have dolts arguing over paradoxes forever
<water> Fare: no, because it's not.
<Fare> it's larger than what any human mind can imagine
<water> the human mind is not a closed system
<Fare> but it's still finite
<water> hello?
<water> i refine:
<water> the human mind is not a closed cybernetic system
<Fare> it's closed enough to have identity
<water> all information feedback loops are computation as well as thought
<Fare> (identity as opposed to other human minds, at least)
<water> no, the consciousness is closed
<Fare> I am not YOU
<water> yes you are
<water> :)
<Fare> YOU are not ALONZOTG
<water> yes i am
<s_r> ; An attempt to solve Tril's problem with his CGA. It flickers for a few
<Fare> CGA????
* Fare/#Tunes remembers the not-so-sweet old times!
<Fare> damn CGA!
* s_r/#tunes is reading Retro source code
* water/#tunes remembers programming for 192 by 150? by 7 colors
<water> geez. i can't recall the apple hi-res graphics res any more
<s_r> water you are a programmer? interesting, i thought you a theorist :)
<water> i haven't been interested in programming in about a year and a half
<water> not in actually doing it
<Fare> 280x192 (or 140x192, depending how you count)
<water> Fare: in logic research, they often play with notions of bounded quantifiers or relativised quantifiers
<water> which are non-deterministic
<water> also, certain kinds of modal operators carry an implicit quantification
<Fare> uh?
<water> oh geez
<Fare> 1) quantifiers are _always_ bounded, so they be meaningful
<water> but not explicitly
<Fare> 2) there are non-deterministic versions of hilbert's epsilon (existential witness) quantifier
<Fare> if not explicitly, because they all have the same universe bound (as in first-order logic)
04:10pm
<water> right. but there are further bounds that can be placed
<Fare> sure.
<tcn> oh, I liked the Apple's split-screen mode with text on the bottom.. I'm adding that feature to Retro
<Fare> but there must be at least a universe bound
<water> why does it take an hour of bickering to get one answer from you?
<Fare> tcn: hehe. Better make the screen handling modular!
<Fare> water: what is the question?
<tcn> sure it'll be more flexible then the Apple
<Fare> I'd like a non-rectangular console
<tcn> actually AutoCAD is similar
<water> Fare: that's the problem. i keep asking you, and you respond by telling me things i already know
<Fare> well, I hate the online console TTY model, anyway
<tcn> yeah
<Fare> water: it's not about telling things you know or don't know
<Fare> it's about agreeing on basic concepts so we can elaborate
<water> Fare: but you do!!!
<tcn> I like to mix text and graphics.. WITHOUT stupid windows
<Fare> because you speak a foreign language
<water> Fare: you seem to think i'm some kind of idiot
<Fare> not at all
<water> no, i assume a lot of things
<tcn> hey you guys should talk to each other in Lojban ;)
<Fare> you're some kind of guy who speaks a language that superficially looks like the same english as me, but isn't quite.
<water> speaking to another intelligent person, as opposed to a machine
<water> you speak like a machine, Fare
<Fare> ERROR LINE 415
<water> "grok"
<tcn> 404 UNKNOWN
<water> "s///"
<Fare> are you afraid of words?
<Fare> do you have a mystical relation with them?
<water> no, i'm afraid of mechanization of the mind
<Fare> then don't be afraid of live language
<water> your's isn't live, it's dead and insect-like
<Fare> of language that adapts and learns context and compresses to say things efficiently
<Fare> you're afraid of appearances!
<water> implicitly you mean learning computing things only
<Fare> not "only"
<water> yes, only
<Fare> sorry if you think so
<water> sorry if you can't see yourself
<water> :)
<Fare> do you want to talk about Middle Ages Europe?
<water> oh reflection-guru
<Fare> or about Ancient Egypt?
<water> no
<water> i know about those times
<Fare> or about vietnamese cooking?
<Fare> or classical music?
<Fare> or classical liberalism?
<Fare> or Aikido?
<tcn> aikido?
<Fare> I fear, however, that this is not the right channel.
<water> fare, you are so far from being able to speak with a mathematician that it is amazing that you are interested in lambda-calc at all
<Fare> People come to #tunes to talk about Tunes. Sorry if that displeases you.
<water> i'm sorry if you don't like my point
<water> you're insecure about having such a close relationship with machines
<Fare> water: my father is a mathematician. I have a "licence" (just before Master's degree) in Math.
<Fare> and I even taught math.
<water> so have i
<Fare> well, who's making assumptions, here?
<_QZ> ok who the hell told paul about os-ideas?
<Fare> QZ: I did. Why?
<water> sorry
<_QZ> he has nothing better to do than spam it now
<Fare> QZ: you prefer it dead?
<water> i just can't figure out why you can't talk to me at my level, and i must descend to yours
04:20pm
<_QZ> yes :)
<tcn> hey I thought I was on os-ideas..?
<AlonzoTG> om
* Fare/#Tunes hits QZ with a Linux HOWTO compendium
<AlonzoTG> hehe
<AlonzoTG> that must hurt...
<AlonzoTG> being over 2000 pages...
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> fucking linux
<Fare> water: what "level"?
<_QZ> tcn: well if u dont have a dozen of so emails from paul today then yer not on it
<Fare> water: raise me!
<water> Fare: it's obvious i can't express it to you
<_QZ> s/dont have/didnt get/
<s_r> Fare: how does one get on the os-ideas list?
<Fare> water: formalize more. Start from a formalized example.
<Fare> maybe I'll see the light and generalize...
<Fare> os-ideas?
<abi> i heard os-ideas was at http://lists.tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma/os-ideas
<water> Fare: no. my research roots are in ai, among other things
<tcn> qz: I guess I don't wanna be on it
<water> Fare: they go in the opposite direction
<water> Fare: from informal to formal
<tcn> oh, paul dufrense
* Fare/#Tunes never studied AI directly, tho I read a few books and articles on my own.
<tcn> he doesn't strike me as a moron
<Fare> I mean, I never had tight contacts with the AI community.
<water> exactly. our methods are in opposition here
<Fare> paul is a bright guy, it seems
<water> i have things that i'd like to express to you, but you expect my argument to mean the opposite of what it is
<Fare> water: maybe you're not expressing yourself correctly, in the context of someone with a formal CS background
<Fare> water: you can give URLs to papers that may help me share your background
<water> Fare: well, "correctness" is relative in the english language
<water> most papers i source from are not e-texts
<Fare> water: instead of meta-discussing, let's discuss!
<Fare> water: if they are well-known books by good authors, I may buy them!
<water> i'm trying to help us understand each other to save time
* Fare/#Tunes loved Minsky's "Society of Mind"
<water> i definitely do not
<Fare> or is it Minski?
<Fare> what do you not do?
<water> i find most writers to be very unimaginative
<s_r> water: do you enjoy fantasy/sci-fi in addition to technical texts?
<water> including Minski. i don't like that book
<water> sr: rarely
<water> sr: even then, i must filter through several hundreds of pages to find tidbits of good ideas
<s_r> water: filter through technical texts or fantasy texts?
<water> sr: fantasy texts
<s_r> fantasy texts are not an exposition of good ideas, they are an enjoyable experience that needs not be dissected for good ideas
<water> sr: they are definitely not enjoyable
<Fare> water: Marv Minsk* is a great writer -- and imaginative, too
04:30pm
<Fare> "imaginative" != "on crack"
<water> fare: yeah whatever. maybe he gave you new ideas, but i thought up stuff much better than that when i was very young
<Fare> uh? everything of it? the 400 pages of it?
<Fare> then you should write those 400 pages!
<water> fare: no
<water> fare: that is a very sparse medium for the amount of ideas he introduces
<water> fare: 2 pages would be sparse enough
<Fare> well, write it in 100 pages!
<Fare> pffff!
<Fare> and who's being spiteful?
<water> fare: i'm obviously characterizing you as very unimaginative
<tcn> god dammit.. OFFSPRING SUCKS!!
<tcn> down with corporate rock!!
<water> fare: ever read Exterminator?
<water> fare: it has more ideas in its 100 pages than all the volumes of cybernetic bullshit.
* tcn/#tunes puts on some Sabbath
<s_r> offspring is corporate rock?
<s_r> tcn: in your boot.asm, it has a "jmp init" but init is not defined anywhere in boot.asm; is it linked to some other file? if so, how? it's 16 bit code and all the rest is 32-bit code
<Fare> never read that book, sorry
<Fare> next you'll say Isaac Asimov wasn't imaginative...
<water> he wasn't
<water> his books really bore me
* Fare/#Tunes wonders what water calls "imaginative"
<water> :)
<Fare> perhaps "imaginative" == "water"
<Fare> or "imaginative" == "on crack"
<Fare> or transitively, "water" == "on crack"
<water> it's amazing what implicit boring stuff people put up with in a book or in someone's technical work in order to call the rare seasoning in it "good ideas"
<tcn> sr: look at the %include directives.. i'll give ya a hint, "init" is a label in init.inc
<water> but then, that's what control-addiction is all about
<water> Fare: you just contradicted yourself
<Fare> sr: why put code in .inc, and not in .asm?
<s_r> fare: wrong address
<s_r> :)
<tcn> hehe
<Fare> oops
<s_r> Fare: do you consider water to be brilliant?
<water> no
<Fare> water: not all Isaac Asimov stories are as good as other ones. But he has pretty great ones, nonetheless.
<tcn> because only .asm files generate binaries.. .inc files are included in those binaries..
<water> no he doesn't
<s_r> Fare: Rise of the Robots
<Fare> sr: either brilliant or crazy, but I can't say which.
<Fare> s_r: sorry, I read french translations
<tcn> and .mac files have no code or data, just macros and %define's
<water> no one can say which
04:40pm
<tcn> Asimov is kinda boring. I'd rather read Frank Herbert or or Walter Jon Williams
<Fare> sr: it looks like water focuses on lot of meaningless syntactic details, and has some mystical illusions about informal systems
<s_r> some say there is no difference between "brilliant" and "crazy"
<Fare> sr: there is
<Fare> sr: definitely
* Fare/#Tunes knows quite a few brilliant people
<smkl> The Foundation trilogy is quite good
<s_r> tcn: H.P. Lovecraft? H.G. Wells?
<water> actually fare, just look up some logic text archives about ideas less than 50 years old, and you should be pleasantly taught new subjects
<water> Fare: no, i focus on context
* s_r/#tunes sees the spite on water's tongue
<water> Fare: which is as important as semantics
<s_r> that's odd. there is no mention of init.inc in boot.asm
<tcn> oh yeah, Lovecraft is great
<s_r> ah here it is. at the bottom
<s_r> tcn: Clive Barker?
<tcn> haven't read much Wells.  Barker.. is he the guy who did Hellraiser? that was cool
<tcn> hey, did anyone see American Pie?
<water> "cool"?
<s_r> mmm american pie
<s_r> heh
<tcn> funny shit
<Fare> water: you obviously don't focus on context -- or you're obnubilated by your own, unshared, context
<water> with an emphasis on the word shit
<water> Fare: context is not absolute
<water> Fare: it is also not proprietary
<abi> okay, water.
<tcn> it?
<abi> or not proprietary
<water> abi forget context
<abi> water: I forgot context
<water> abi forget it
<abi> water: I forgot it
<Fare> water: *you* seem to think your context is absolute
<water> Fare: au contrare
<water> oops
<water> no
<Fare> you expect everyone to know your context, but refuse to give the least clue as to what it can be
<water> but that doesn't mean i can translate my ideas to an arbitrary context that i perceive
<smkl> do tunes mailing lists send back messages to their senders?
<water> smkl: no
<water> hehe
<Fare> (although I've recently managed to discover that it was partly AI-related)
<tcn> smkl: yes
04:50pm
<Fare> smkl: use group reply
<tcn> oh that
<water> Fare: really? you discovered that context might be related to ai?
<Fare> pffff!
<Fare> that *your* context was related AI
<water> Fare: i thought that you grok'd jmc?
<Fare> you're not quite jmc
<water> so?
<Fare> I can grok jmc, but not you
<Fare> and he's a lot to grok, too, and easily
<water> i see
<s_r> tcn: when the call is made to dword 8:pmode in init.inc, where is pmode? it's not in any files included to init.inc
<tcn> sr: it's in pmode.inc
* water/#tunes feels he understands fare but still has no idea how to ask him the right questions or tell him the right things.
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't understand water, although he understands a few unhelpful things about water
<water> geez.
<water> unhelpful things about me?
<water> ok, "water is useless for tunes"
<water> "because water is useless to fare"
<Fare> not that
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't feel water understands him, either
<tcn> sr: see a pattern yet?
<water> fare: if you don't understand a word of what i say, why would you consider me useful at all?
<Fare> if that may reassure you...
05:00pm
<water> no
<water> it doesn't reassure me, because it means to you that i don't understand tunes
<water> i don't grok it
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<_BC> Hi all
<water> hi bc
<tcn> hey bc
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> mu
<_BC> hi tcn; water
<water> fare: there are lots of people who do understand a lot of what i say in my paper
<water> fare: and they in general believe that i understand a lot of things in ways that you don't about tunes
<Fare> good for them
<Fare> start a project with them, then
<water> fare: i'm saying that your idea of tunes isn't the final one, either in development or after bootstrapping
<water> no!
<_BC> geewillickerz; water
<water> what would two projects with the same goal but different methodologies benefit us?
<_BC> tcn ; may i ask how your retro is going?
<Fare> water: end of timewaste at discussing
<Fare> selection by code rather than by words
<water> fare: but there are no other tunesers who can challenge your ideas
<water> fare: you would be self-guided and without edit
<Fare> I dono't want my ideas challenged by words, but by facts
<Fare> your "edit" wasn't helpful up to now
<water> fare: facts don't impress you unless they are presented by intelligible words
<Fare> neither was mine to you, seemingly
<tcn> bc: I stripped it down, removed lots of crap, used Forth called conventions throughout, temporarily got rid of modules..
05:10pm
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<water> hcf!
<hcf> water!
<water> fare and i were trying to talk about lambdaND, but our differences prevail
<tcn> bc: i'd like to try those ideas we discussed about ipc
<water> and he refuses to learn from others. he insists on repeating what others have learned
<hcf> whoa, lots of mail
<water> indeed
05:20pm
<Fare> tcn: commit!
<Fare> wat: so, can't you formalize anything?
<tcn> there's snapshot on my Retro page.. read the news
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-5.tscnet.net])
<Fare> is the snapshot committed to cvs?
<Fare> are you aware that we have a daily snapshot?
<Fare> are you aware that if you chmod a-w it, it will stay undeleted forever (in case you wanna freeze some versions)
<tcn> yeah, this isn't integrated with the main retro
<tcn> yet
<tcn> actually, it'll replace what's in CVS
<Fare> replace?
<Fare> that defeats the purpose of cvs
<Fare> wgich 
<Fare> which is to track modifications...
05:30pm
<tcn> whatever
<Fare> and also to serve as an incremental software distribution tool
<hcf> Fare: hows the popl paper coming?
<Fare> not
<Fare> I've gathered all the stuff for the bibliography
<Fare> (not all in .bib format yet)
<Fare> printed it, checked that my paper was original
<smkl> what paper is it? implement1 ?
05:40pm
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<Fare> revamped implement1
<water> k
<tcn> fare, what do you use for writing papers? latex? lyx?
<water> uploaded it, too?
<Fare> latex
<Fare> with xypic for figures
<Fare> not much revamped currently
<Fare> it's on paper
<water> oh
<Fare> and in my mind
<tcn> just wondering
* Fare/#Tunes is a bit upset by the mix of good ideas and plain arbitrary oddities in GASM
<tcn> I tried out lyx the other day.. pretty cool, at first glance
<tcn> hehe
<Fare> tcn: never trust your first glance!
<tcn> you mean it sucks?
<water> what's its limits?
<Fare> it doesn't _suck_
<Fare> it's just half-full of crap, half-full of gold
<water> ?
<Fare> get the gold, drop the crap
<tcn> what's the crap?
<Fare> for instance, the idea of having discrete sequences of step is well-known, it's no innovation, but it's good
<Fare> the idea of having semi-intentional labels that remain from state to state is great
<Fare> but the arbitrary limitations on the structure of states is completely stupid.
05:50pm
<tcn> I like the math-mode, as compared to Word
<Fare> I like anything, as compared to Word
<tcn> if all you have is Word you're better off using a pencil, paper & fax :)
<Fare> If all I have is Word, I'm better off downloading LaTeX!
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...)
<tcn> well hopefully latex/lyx will replace it
<water> linux bigots are still bigots
<water> yes
<tcn> word is the best WP in widespread use, I think.. but it's got some serious quirks
<_BC> why, wat?
<water> or a graphical programming engine more powerful than latex can be made
<tcn> something with a binary (but not secret) format
<water> yet more powerful than lisp or forth
<tcn> something that encompasses lisp and forth
<water> well...
<water> yeah
<Fare> I have a friend who could say some on WP's version SDP's
<water> so?
<Fare> water: I'm growing tired of your whining
<water> fare: and i'm growing tired of your arrogance
<hcf> what a lovely couple
<water> i've completely given up trying to explain arrow to this group lately
<_BC> how're your "easy (easier?) reading papers" going water? 
<water> they've stopped this last week
<water> there's no point
<water> since fare has spoken his agenda
06:00pm
<_BC> why does that matter so much to you?  don't the rest of us count?
<Fare> if you feel out of place on tunes@tunes.org, go on os-ideas@tunes.org !
<water> well, if everyone agrees with him, then, no, they don't count
* Fare/#Tunes wonders who's being arrogant
* water/#tunes wonders why he spent time on this group of losers at all
<Fare> yeah. Leave us to our lose.
<tcn> fare, brian's more interested in langauges and math than OSes
<tcn> afaik
<Fare> I see no math at all in what he's doing
<Fare> and no formal language, either
<AlonzoTG> yam eye on OS-Ideaz?
<water> fare: blind
<Fare> and apparently, his english isn't good enough to have me understand anything
<water> fare: and deaf
<Fare> maybe his next papers will be more understandable
<tcn> well, i know another mathematician-soldier and he reminds me of brian :)
* AlonzoTG/#tunes wants to be on OS-Ideas
<AlonzoTG> =)
<tcn> he's not very good at math but he loves it
<tcn> he also likes to argue :)
<water> just like i'm not a computer, but i address their affect on people
<water> only a computer is good at computing
* _BC/#tunes thinks certain member/members are too agressive on this #ch..?
<water> a person should never be a computer
<tcn> all mathematicians are bad at computing :)  this guy has a hard time understanding it too
<Fare> I know mathematicians who are quite good at computing
<Fare> lots of them
<tcn> he'll be a better mathematician than me, though, unless I suddenly take a liking to math :)
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<Fare> (not to talk about Turing, whom I could never meet know personally)
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<tcn> oh well, I'll let you two get back to your dispute
<water> i don't want to argue, but i find your statements offensive, even insulting
06:10pm
<Fare> disprove them with facts rather than with indignation
<water> facts have no place in a discussion of computer science
* Fare/#Tunes finds it silly to be offensed over IRC
<Fare> you're playing words, again!
<water> it is not a fact that a theorem is true
<water> wittgenstein played with words
<water> and developed renewed world-wide interest in linguistics
<Fare> renewed interest in word plays, too
-:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Mr_Wrong[adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net])
<Fare> his fame is partly due to lots of morons being able to play words and make believe they, too, are philosophers
<water> yes, that's true too
<Fare> big french school of such morons
<AlonzoTG> waits a minutes!
<water> but fame is synonymous with idiocy
<AlonzoTG> We already haf Unios why get Osideas?
<Fare> they have ditched french philosophy into a deep hole
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> sartre?
<AlonzoTG> =P
<Fare> ATG: to name one
* _BC/#tunes shall return when the chalf has settled......
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<AlonzoTG> descartes!
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250104.clarityconnect.net])
<Fare> descartes was still a great mathematician
<water> descartes was also the one who identified positivism
<water> which relates to reflection
<Fare> yes, he made quite interesting attempts at philosophy
<water> which were interesting ideas to contradict by others, though the others were very late in doing so
<Fare> yup
06:20pm
<water> it's amazing we agree on anything
<Fare> water: I'm fare, you're water.
<Fare> water: 2+2=4
<water> honestly, no
<water> i don't agree based on standards
<Fare> then you don't agree on anything!
<water> no, i don't agree on imposed standards
* Fare/#Tunes is speaking southern venusian, which looks superficially like english when encoded over IRC
<water> you still don't get it
<Fare> maybe that's why we don't understand each other: we didn't agree on what language standard to use, and we think the other one speaks the same, whereas he doesn't
<water> yeah sure
<water> or maybe you criticize before listening
<s_r> why so much bickering?
<Fare> maybe you have nothing to say, so you get offensed at first word
<water> because fare is the bigot who created this project and wrote most of it's dogma
<Fare> which allows you to evade discussion
<water> no, i have plenty to say. you just don't understand it
<Fare> say it, then
<Fare> do you understand it yourself?
* water/#tunes understands and obeys
<water> yes, i understand it
<water> !
<Fare> cool. Now explain it!
<water> yes, master
<Fare> (not necessarily, on irc)
<Fare> (but here if you feel it convenient)
<water> physician, heal thyself!
<water> Fare: explain tunes to me, then
<water> don't describe it, explain how it works and why
<Fare> You think you know when you can learn, are more sure when you can write, even more when you can teach, but certain when you can program. -- Alan Perlis
<water> which is why programmers are bigots
<Fare> poor you
06:30pm
<water> and why the tunes groug is misguided
<water> yes, i speak heresy at programmers who think they can unify programming with using
<water> yet want no such thing
<water> explain how tunes works, fare
<Fare> write a paper on that and publish it on the web
<water> you understand it, so explain it
<Fare> I'll gladly point to it from the Tunes page
<water> explain how tunes works, fare
<Fare> I don't claim I understand all of tunes.
<Fare> I'm a researcher, mind you
<water> you don't understand any of it
<water> you understand lambdaND and implement1
<Fare> not in the meaning of having implemented it, obviously
<water> physician, heal thyself!
<Fare> sure
<water> so at least try to explain it
<water> here. now. since it should be that simple
<water> still there?
<water> well, i have two weeks of isolation from this channel to re-group my writing efforts on this next set of papers.
06:40pm
<Fare> great!
<water> hopefully, my motivation to write will heal
<Fare> one can always hope
<water> :P
<Fare> "tant qu'il y a de la vie, il y a de l'espoir"
<Fare> (et reciproquement, d'ailleurs)
<s_r> Fare do you speak vietnamese?
<AlonzoTG> grok?
<Fare> sr: tres peu
<AlonzoTG> gronk?
<s_r> water do you think it's possible to fully implement turing level AI in computer language?
<water> turing-level ai? you mean passing the turing test against the average person?
<s_r> yes
<AlonzoTG> om
<water> yes, but then the average person is not very intelligent and neither is the test very helpful
<s_r> you think the average person is not very intelligent?
<s_r> would you consider yourself above average?
<water> i think the average person is a control-addict
<water> overall intelligence usually is invariant among people
<s_r> water have you, in your lifetime, met any really brilliant people?
<s_r> <water> Fare.
<s_r> :)
<water> hmm
<water> i've never actually witnessed brilliance
<water> and i can't judge my own ideas like that
06:50pm
<s_r> i'm sure you've seen brilliance in Fare's thoughts :P
<Fare> come live in Paris -- lots of brilliant people around here!
<water> yeah whatever. at least he came up with the tunes idea mostly on his own
<s_r> Fare how's the nightlife in Paris?
<s_r> why can't you judge your ideas?
<_QZ> ouch, 9000 lines of code and an 11k kernel
<s_r> QZ: what are you talking about?
<_QZ> the freakin binary is bigger than the source
<_QZ> brix
<_QZ> i finally got it to assemble
<water> wow
<_QZ> maybe its all the macros
<s_r> what assembler did you use?
<s_r> MASM?
<abi> MASM is supported but not widely used outside of Microsoft
<_QZ> nasm
<s_r> i'd use BSD as
<s_r> have you worked on the BRiX native compiler?
<_QZ> yes
<Fare> sr: nightlife in Paris is whatever you want
<Fare> sr: "nul ne saurait etre juge et partie"
<s_r> Fare have you met with any of the strange characters in Paris?
<s_r> :-]
<Fare> sure, that, too
<s_r> what kind of oddities and curios have you found?
<_QZ> hahaha, my friend just bought 4 celeron366's and not one is oc'able
<s_r> QZ does the BRiX kernel work?
<_QZ> havent tried it, but i doubt it
<_QZ> right now i know of several areas of code that wont work
<s_r> unoptimized?
<_QZ> i sweep back and forth thru its 115 files making sure they all work in my head
<s_r> you should set up a CVS server repository for brix code
<_QZ> i have tons of files documenting each functions
<_QZ> then i will run thru each function in bochs giving it tons of inputs and monitoring its output
<_QZ> that way i know each function is perfect
<_QZ> 115 files, 115 functions
<s_r> why not group functions together in files?
<_QZ> i should be done sometime next year :)
07:00pm
<water> perfect functions?
<_QZ> takes longer to find em
<s_r> you mean you'll be done with the kernel next year?
<_QZ> water: ya under no circumstances will they produce an unexpected result
<s_r> wow QZ is like microsoft :)
<_QZ> s_r: ill be done debugging it
<s_r> a big code testing machine
<_QZ> m$ doesnt do any testing
<s_r> when will the OS and all the servers and user apps be done?
<_QZ> in brix the kernel is the most important component. if it isnt stable then the OS isnt stable
<s_r> that's why it's in asm
<_QZ> s_r: dont ask me that or i'll rm the source again
<_QZ> just like with tunes, if the type/bounds checking in the language isnt perfect than the OS isnt stable
<s_r> sometime in a few years the internet should be flooded with a bunch of OSes that were started in these couple of years
<_QZ> i doubt that
<water> qz: why?
<s_r> well i know dolphin will get somewhere
<_QZ> i think whoever gets their os ready first will get all the developers from other oses
<water> qz: you mean like linux? :)
<_QZ> ya
<s_r> but you don't work on linux, qz
<water> qz has predicted his project's own demise
<_QZ> cuz i want a better kind of os
<s_r> heheh water
<water> better kind of os?
<water> like what?
<s_r> clairvoyant
<water> your idea of better isn't everyone else's
<_QZ> water: tunes,brix,dolphin,clementine
<s_r> at the rate you're going i'll be finished with my OS first, QZ :)
<_QZ> s_r: haha
<s_r> clementine is non existant
<_QZ> clementine exists
<_QZ> i have run it
<s_r> and my OS is in the idea stage still
<s_r> QZ where do you get clementine?
<_QZ> from core
<s_r> how far has it progressed?
<_QZ> do u know what xcom is?
<s_r> xcom?
<abi> i heard xcom was a portable component system at http://xcom.tunes.org
<_QZ> xcom was designed by core for clementine and other oses
<s_r> arg... these "revolutionary" OSes will never get anywhere :(
<_QZ> i think clementine has fs and floppy drivers and it supports smp
<s_r> i _love_ graphics programming
* s_r/#tunes has this neat phong shaded torus demo
07:10pm
<s_r> i want to include supreme graphics support in my OS
<s_r> like TNT2 drivers
<s_r> and an opengl kit
<s_r> an opengl WM
<s_r> with 3d windows
<s_r> heh
<_QZ> ha
<s_r> ?
<_QZ> too bad u cant see the brix ui
<_QZ> its nice
<s_r> what is it like?
<water> make a screenshot
<s_r> is it fast?
<_QZ> water: what program can take screenshots from my head? :)
<Fare> water: have an inferiority complex? don't!
<s_r> QZ describe the brix ui
<water> fare: yes, sir!
<_QZ> s_r: cant, there is too much u need to know about brix before u could understand
<_QZ> Fare: ?
* water/#tunes gets ordered around all day by morons who could send him to prison.
<Fare> water: it's aie aie for you
<water> i have my reasons for being defensive
<Fare> hum. ok, then.
<_QZ> water: are u a screw off luser?
<_QZ> water: only lusers get ordered around alot
<water> no.
<s_r> QZ when will the UI be revealed to the likes of myself? :)
<s_r> water where do you work? do you like your work?
<_QZ> water: u need to kiss more ass to get ahead
<_QZ> s_r: water is a navy boy :)
<water> sr: like it? no. it pays the bills and serves my purposes
<water> qz: kicking ass is not winning
<_QZ> i said KISS not kick
<water> ugh
<water> no thanks, then
<water> that will only turn me into one of the morons
<_QZ> what made u join the navy? was it the low entrance standards? :)
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> me os will be k000l
<s_r> wtf does "om" mean?
<AlonzoTG> and eeezie to uze
<s_r> that is all i ever hear from Al
<_QZ> or the fact that u never have to get shot at
<_QZ> do u learn to fire any weapons?
07:20pm
<s_r> QZ: is brix heavily optimized?
<water> qz: they don't care what my personal views are, but like my technical talents. it also will help me pay for college, and avoid the legal restrictions that expire when i turn 24
<_QZ> s_r: ya
<water> qz: i run nuclear reactors
<Fare> legal restrictions?
<Fare> what college will that be?
<water> i have a trust fund that forces me to attend state schools
-:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> i was offered full scholarships to MIT, Rice, Clarkson, ... but could not attend
<Fare> hum. is rice a state school?
<water> no
<water> private
<Fare> too bad
<water> indeed
<water> i lived near houston at the time, too
<Fare> utexas?
<water> ugh
<water> no thanks
<Fare> paul wilson is there.
<_QZ> water: do they let u shoot weapons?
<water> yes, but its still a state school. (full of idiots)
<Fare> QZ: yeah, they shoot atomic missiles on trespassers every morning
<water> qz: no. i run power plants
<Fare> water: you're already convinced that you'll go to a school full of morons, anyway?
<_QZ> water: im serious do they train u to shoot weapons? a sling-shot or anything
<Fare> water: still, the important thing is the teachers, not just the fellow students
<_QZ> in navy basic training
<water> fare: i've already been to one. the first day convinced me to drop out
<water> qz: yes, rifles and such
<_QZ> grenades?
<water> fare: but the intelligent teachers were sparse
<Fare> the first&second year students are like that. Up to Master, perhaps.
<water> qz: yes
<_QZ> at4's?
<Fare> But afterwards, it must be ok
<water> qz: no
<_QZ> too bad
<_QZ> m60?
<water> qz: no!
<_QZ> m203?
* water/#tunes wonders if _QZ has "gun" envy.
<water> ;)
<_QZ> i'm army and we tend to bash navy boys :)
<_QZ> well i gues severy branch bashes navy
<water> qz: who cares? i'm not navy
<Fare> are you not?
<_QZ> what are u?
<water> qz: department of energy
<Fare> is that military?
<_QZ> uhh
<water> qz: military function is ancillary
<water> fare: no
<_QZ> so yer a civilian?
<_QZ> on a navy boat?
<water> i have a military rank, yes
<_QZ> if u have a navy rank then u are navy
<water> i am not a document
<water> a document does not define my existence
<Fare> "The Army is a place where you get up early in the morning to be yelled at by people with short haircuts and tiny brains." -- Dave Barry
<water> or any properties thereof
<AlonzoTG> om
<_QZ> water: what pay grade are u?
<_QZ> :)
<water> e5 plus a ton of bonus pay
07:30pm
<_QZ> and u have been in how long?
<water> 3 years, 3 months
<_QZ> did u know that if u go in with a bachlor u start at e4?
<water> yes
<_QZ> and u would be making alot more now
<water> i did start at e4
<water> and i have an associates
<_QZ> it took u 3 years to get promoted????
<water> no
<_QZ> u should get promoted every 6-12 months
<Fare> are you getting irradiated?
<water> not so in the navy
<water> fare: yes
<_QZ> navy sucks
<Fare> that explains a lot
<water> yeah whatever (to both)
<_QZ> u get irradiated and shit on in the promotions and yet u stay
<Fare> are you witness of sea pollution?
<water> i get less radiation from my job than you two get from standing in front of a microwave oven for 5 minutes
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't stand in front of microwave ovens
<water> fare: yes, the navy dumps trash
<AlonzoTG> hehe (om)
<water> well, if you smoke at all, then you get many times more radiation than i would ever get
<_QZ> water: what fool has ever stood in front of their microwave for 5 minutes???
<_QZ> i dont smoke
<water> qz: over a long period of time, perhaps many
* AlonzoTG/#tunes ; eagerly awaiting POPCORN!!!!
<_QZ> ok we have bashed water enuf, time to stop
<_QZ> lets bash fare now :)
<water> let's put it this way: sn-bathing is much more irradiating than my job
<water> sun-bathing
<_QZ> oh wait he got bashed the other day, lets bash alongzo
* Fare/#Tunes hates sun -- uses PCs instead
<AlonzoTG> That's what they would like yout to believe >=P
<_QZ> water: i rarely ever see the sun
<water> qz: likewise. i work underwater mostly
07:40pm
<_QZ> kernel=8445 and setup=2653 bytes
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> ekselent!
<AlonzoTG> om
07:50pm
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
<AlonzoTG> salam
<AlonzoTG> efendi
<_QZ> how do u do a wildcard but exclude a file
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<_QZ> bleh-1 bleh-2 bleh-3 bleh-4, but exclude say bleh-3
08:10pm
<water> well, it's too damn quiet
<_QZ> yes it is
<water> i don't have an answer for you on that wildcard thing, except that regexp must have something for it
<_QZ> the answer popped into my head
<water> k
<_QZ> bleh-[!3]*
<_QZ> water: so u gonna make yer own OS?
<water> no not me personally
<_QZ> u gonna find some chimps like fare did?
<_QZ> :)
<water> if i made one, it would be to take a system like, say, arrow, and do it the easiest way possible
<water> i mean by reflection
<water> sorta
<_QZ> what?
<water> arrow really isn't reflective like the comp.sci. guys think of reflection
<water> n/m
<_QZ> what is yer definition
<water> an os for arrow is an ontology
<water> a particular ontology for the hardware
<water> def of what?
<_QZ> brix has a relfection when i hold its floppy in front of a mirror :)
08:50pm
<_QZ> is arrow the same way?
<water> reflection relies on a concept of "self"
<water> arrow allows arbitrary conceptions of "self"
<water> and conceptions are ontologies
<water> does that make sense at all?
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> u need to stop pulling buzzwords out of yer ass
<water> well, you can describe arrow in any way you want, because it is just an information system. it doesn't have properties, and it doesn't store info, it just translates it
<_QZ> trying to sum up arrow in a single line doesnt work
<water> ontologies were not invented by me, you ignoramus!
<_QZ> a arrow is a telepathic enery matrix
<_QZ> s/a/ah,/
<water> shut up
<water> do you understand the idea of an information system?
<_QZ> u know when tril/fare couldnt explain how tunes worked i said it used fairy dust
<water> that makes me feel much better then
<_QZ> and they finally sat down and figured out how it works
<water> they figured out how tunes works?
<_QZ> does arrow rely on fairy dust?
<water> that's impossible, because they still don't know how it works
<water> no, it relies on both people and machines
<_QZ> ya the idea behind tunes is very simple
<water> the arrow system needs people to work
<water> it includes people
<_QZ> brix is an information system
<water> bullshit
<_QZ> it is
<water> maybe a lame one
<water> but not a useful one
<_QZ> everything, even programs, are documents
<water> dos is an information system, by your standards
<water> i'm talking about something that promotes information freedom
<_QZ> no other system can match its search ability
* water/#tunes rolls his eyes
<_QZ> i dont think u know what yer talking about
* water/#tunes waits for more crap from _QZ's mouth
<water> you don't read anything!
<_QZ> im illiterate
<water> you read assembly all the time!
<water> you don't read about programming systems that people make
<water> or knowledge bases
<water> or try to use them
<water> so don't blame me for your ignorance
<_QZ> ignorance is when u wont explain yer idea to someone else that wants to know
09:00pm
<water> well, the idea is alien to you
<_QZ> make it unalien
<water> well ok
<water> sigh...
<water> i think i'm tired of selling this idea over and over again
<water> but here goes
<water> programming involves the user communicating ideas to a piece of software which translates them to run on the hardware
<water> the pieces of text in a program mean one thing to the programmer and another to the software
<water> and another thing to the run-time system, like the X Windowing system, for instance
<water> each of these things has its own kinds of things that make up its little universe
<water> for the user, it's very complicated. no computer has ever understood or will understand all of that
<water> but for the software kinds, there are some simple ideas used to build up these little universes that they live in
<water> for x-windows, its widgets and processes and terminals and windows ...
<_QZ> u lost me on the user line
<water> hmm
<_QZ> did u make a typo?
<_QZ> all of what?
<water> what the user is thinking of when he/she interacts with software is more complicated than what the computer software is "thinking"
<_QZ> ok
<_QZ> continue
<water> for instance, the programmer uses text identifiers to help him know what concepts each programming language object represents
<water> but the computer doesn't use that information at all (usually)
<water> i think that that kind of information could be useful to the software system
<water> like "what x means"
<_QZ> hooking meaning to variable names?
<water> it would allow a kind of re-use of code based on semantics
<water> well
09:10pm
<water> removing the variable names idea, and instead linking the object's definition with a semantic link network-like idea that explained the concept to the software
<water> which could eventually be linked to text for UI purposes, but in a generic way
<water> so that my "foo" could be someone else's "bar"
<water> even though they would mean the same thing
<_QZ> ok i understand that
<water> for instance, in a multi-user system, one person's "favorite color" would not be the same thing as another persons "favorite color"
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us710.javanet.com])
<water> i want the software to handle situations like that in arbitrary ways
<water> sort of dynamically extensible
<_QZ> brix does all this
<water> nah
<_QZ> it does
<water> not like i want arrows to do it
<_QZ> brix will have a very nice AI friend built in
<_QZ> assistant
<water> the point is that the implementation should be like that too
<_QZ> so is that all of what arrow is?
<_QZ> its just a feature of a language that could be used on any os?
<Kaufmann> oh boy
<water> hehe. brix will make you the best coffee in the world while it boots
<water> changing implementation should be like conversing with the hardware. you can change who you are talking to , as well as how you talk to him
<water> no, i'm drastically simplifying the concepts
<water> arrow has a lot more to offer than that
<water> this "way of talking to things" is called an ontology
<water> kauf: ?
<water> qz: no
<water> qz: not just a feature, and arrow is not a language
<Kaufmann> arrow?
<abi> arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<water> qz: arrow cannot be expressed by a language
<Kaufmann> water: nothing
09:20pm
<water> arrow does not have "features"
<_QZ> ya arrow is also the storage for the data
<water> no
<water> the arrow construct is a way of looking at things
<water> of describing them by binary links
<_QZ> arrow is a dbase that holds meanings and values and an interface
<water> the links themselves are not important, especially as a storage format
<water> no, it's not a database
<water> there is no "meaning" or"value" either
<water> and the interface is not unique
<water> the interface is just an ontology too
<water> interfaces, programming languages, gui systems, natural-language interfaces, i/o models, data formats, operating systems, and compilation schemes are all ontologies
<water> the idea of the arrow system is to manage all kinds of information by these ontologies. you can compose them and invert them, too.
<water> you can even manage information about the system itself within the system using ontologies
<water> qz: follow at all?
<_QZ> sorta
<Kaufmann> QZ, don't worry, nobody really understands it at all :) j/k
<_QZ> haha
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-32.tscnet.net])
<_QZ> i think water just got irradiated
09:30pm
<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> he's lost his antologies
09:40pm
-:- witten [witten@sji-ca4-75.ix.netcom.com] has joined #tunes
<eStormy> i just spent an hour reading today's #tunes talk
<eStormy> here's my vote for quote of the day:        (_QZ) u need to stop pulling buzzwords out of yer ass
<witten> that's a good one
<witten> because many people are often guilty of doing that
<eStormy> i didn't understand 3/4ths of what i read
<eStormy> and i say if they can't translate it to babytalk, they don't really understand it.  (c;
<witten> well, maybe not *babytalk*.. but definitely undergraduate CS student talk.
<eStormy> time for bed
<eStormy> be happy
-:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (eStormy has no reason)
10:10pm
* Kaufmann/#tunes will be leaving now.
<witten> ok
<Kaufmann> uhrm. IRC's /me is great polymorphism.
<Kaufmann> heh
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein. For more information regarding the good and evil of nationalism, contact Fare at OpenProjectsNet #Tunes. (Heh.))
10:50pm
<_QZ> holy crap, bochs created a 12meg log file
<witten> yikes
<_QZ> hmm, do u use unix?
<witten> yeah
<_QZ> tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors
<_QZ> any idea what that means?
<witten> no, what were you trying to do?
<_QZ> tar a directory
<_QZ> it fails after it has tar'd everything up
<_QZ> hmm the tar file seems to be fine
<witten> odd.
<witten> is the tarfile being created in the directory?
<_QZ> no
<witten> i don't know
11:20pm
<_QZ> heh, there is a file in there with 000 perms. when i change it to 600 it works without the error
<witten> hm well there you go
<_QZ> well im gonna crash, cya
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
11:30pm
-:- witten [witten@sji-ca4-75.ix.netcom.com] has left #tunes []
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0716
IRC log ended Fri Jul 16 00:00:01 1999