IRC log started Thu Jun 10 00:00:01 1999 -:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #tunes <_BC> Hiyaz [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0610 <_BC> anyone about? <_BC> I had a question..... <_BC> Is there a PM shell of routines I can use for building 3+86 code? things like generate segment, map memory, etcetc. <_BC> oherll.. I'll check another time... G'day to ya -:- SignOff _BC: #TUNES (I toss myself out of an airlock and try to sing....) 12:10am -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu]) -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. The Ancient Tier One players seem to have hiccupped. We'll keep you informed. -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from asimov.openprojects.net [01:22am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -lilo(lilo@216.172.86.2)- [Global Notice] Hi all. We continue to suffer from intermittent serious backbone-related problems. Appears to be an ALTERNET problem. We'll keep you informed. !zheng.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT varley.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from clarke.openprojects.net [03:22am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-168.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hmm quiet indeed what's up? 04:20am * water/#tunes is studying the expressiveness and capabilities of TML. vs Arrow, of course. TML relates to a family of small languages that cannot reflect. but TML includes operators to create more than that by higher-order function. 04:30am interesting, indeed, but what are its limits? finiteness? the lack of an ability to re-model its language values? ahh! * water/#tunes is enlightened by a tutorial for a TML-like language. with ordinary languages, the way to complete an algorithm spec lies in the choice of the steps to take. abi tml? water: i haven't a clue hmm 04:40am -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-199.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-168.tscnet.net]) -:- _water is now known as water fare: you are asleep, then? i assumed that you would be up at this hour hum * Fare/#Tunes has problems with dpkg i couldn't help you with that. :( :( :( I can' t help myself either :( :( :( 04:50am -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) fare: what do you think of tml? -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes wb abi some kind of m4-alike well, then, m4? what about it? m4 is a horrible macro system ok, but disregarding the particular syntax, then what? I think that string-based rewrite is a bad idea why? technically-speaking, of course. 1) intrinsically slow 2) very cumbersome when you want to manipulate other kind of structures (graphs, trees) ahh, yes. number two definitely appeals to me. other people (maude, spike, elan) are having structure-based rewrite systms that are much cleaner why restrict a rewrite system to strings? spike? elan? are their addresses in review? dunno * water/#tunes looks www.loria.fr/protheo/ "not found" says my http fare: elan isn't linked. * water/#tunes starts looking at spike well, maybe www.loria.fr/elan/ spike is for proofs, elan for computation they'd like to reimplement spike in elan, one day, when elan is good enough of course 05:00am no, that address doesn't work, either. * water/#tunes downloads the spike manual. fare: i thought maude was restricted to strings as well. sorry, i've got to get ready for work. i'll be away for a few minutes at a time for a while. :( 05:10am -:- Myrmidon [ubiquity@dm2-6.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes Howdy. howdy? Greetings? Greetings! Well met. :( 05:20am hum. What's up? Not much. Just reading a book before I have to go to work. Thought I'd stop by and see what nocturnal creatures were stirring about before I had to leave. nocturnal? It's around midday! I know, for you. :) have you read my latest draft article? Nope. http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/index.html - This is it? I'll check it out sometime. :) hmm? fare's article is in /~fare/tmp/. Oh, ok. myrm: hi implement1.* * water/#tunes is getting ready for work Hello. :) abi: ELAN is at http://www.loria.fr/equipes/protheo/PROJECTS/ELAN/ fare: thanks 05:30am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-225-247.s501.tnt6.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hi atg AlonzoTG! myrmidon: what's your formal background in maths/CS ? personally, i can see a lot of our talk about the arrow system in Fare's new paper. I barely graduated from high school. I've taken PASCAL, Visual Basic, and C++ courses. i have to admit that it's certainly going to help me out. brb * water/#tunes goes to take a quick shower. Calculus was the last mathematics course I had before graduating. * Myrmidon/#tunes shrugs. 05:40am Myrmidon: well, I'm interested in knowing whether my article is readable by you... Oh, I don't have time to read it now. I have ten minutes left before I head off to work. But I've downloaded your document already, so I'll read it later. :) Myrm: tell me when you read it (or decide that it's unreadable) Sure thing. thanks No problem. :) I better go. -:- SignOff Myrmidon: #TUNES (Leaving) 05:50am * water/#tunes has to go to work, now. bye fare, atg -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-199.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 06:10am -:- Connection closed from clarke.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net [refnum 1] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net [refnum 1] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net [refnum 1] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net [refnum 1] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Servers exhausted. Restarting. [1] -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection timed out -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net [refnum 1] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Servers exhausted. Restarting. [2] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES -:- Your host is clarke.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 13 24:47 EDT -:- clarke.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(13)] 4% -:- [global users on irc(146)] 42% -:- [invisible users on irc(198)] 58% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 4% -:- [total users on irc(344)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(32)] (avg. 10 users per server) -:- [total channels created(91)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !clarke.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 23 (22 clients) !clarke.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 1 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#Tunes:5)] [ TUNES ] [@Tril ] [ Fare ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ hcf ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 8.681 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) * Fare/#Tunes is back BC: and it would support 6502 compatibility, too? 02:20pm -:- ProGuy [Paul@p444-89.ppp.get2net.dk] has joined #tunes Hiya 03:00pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us831.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ProGuy: #TUNES (Segmentation fault : KVirc 0.9.0 by Szymon 'Pragma@ircnet' Stefanek ) -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250093.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hoy tcn hey what's up, tcn 03:30pm not much, eh? -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) 03:40pm -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh1-port19.snet.net] has joined #tunes hello hoy does anyone know how to use DJGPP and LD? 04:10pm -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from clarke.openprojects.net [04:29pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-225-247.s501.tnt6.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us831.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh1-port19.snet.net] has joined #Tunes billyboof: install Linux they are made for dos .. i don't have a machine to put linux on.. if the machine can run djgpp, it can run linux 04:50pm -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup576.nni.com] has joined #tunes hoy s_r -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup576.nni.com] has left #tunes [] 05:10pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (BitchX-74p4+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) -:- water [water@98ABB124.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes oh. (topic) what's up? 05:50pm -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by clarke.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from clarke.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from varley.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is varley.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from varley.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from varley.openprojects.net) -:- varley.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(132)] 39% -:- [global users on irc(143)] 42% -:- [invisible users on irc(194)] 58% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 4% -:- [total users on irc(337)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(33)] (avg. 10 users per server) -:- [total channels created(95)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !varley.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 194 (189 clients) !varley.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: www.tunes.org is currently down. tunes.org, however, is still alive and kicking. -:- topic set by water [Thu Jun 10 17:55:34 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:5)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ water ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ Fare ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.947 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES abi: what is tunes? hmmm... tunes is a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system abi: what is arrow? arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/ abi: alma? bugger all, i dunno, water abi: what are you? it has been said that i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut abi: what is water? you are, like, an expression of the Tao abi: fare? fare is sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) that may disconnect him anytime 06:00pm * water/#tunes is showing his friend the IRC environment. sdfsdfoih ?!? you may beep me ^G   perhaps repeatedly (thru /msg) to get my attention while I'm another window (virtual screen, even) : /msg Fare ^G ? anyway, what's up? * Fare/#Tunes must prepare a 90' speech against intellectual property for sunday... oh 06:20pm fare: i just read "axioms.ps" concerning Maude. the reflection vs Universal Theory idea was very interesting why "vs"? i think that i may prove my arrow system as sufficient for a universal theory not vs you can't unless you have a formal smenatics for it... you know, their relation to each other oh sure well, my arrow system exceeds the requirements, then. that's bad, then why? because this means it's not constructible. oh, i see what you mean. if it's constructible, it can be no more than universal among constructible systems. but maybe its not necessary to be constructible then in what class are you going to be universal? * Fare/#Tunes goes take a shower ok. i'll find an answer for you. perhaps arrow relates to UML (univ. modelling lang.) in the same way. -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hey qz UML? ouch. Looks like yet another crappy "visual" pseudo-thing <_QZ> heya water fare: well, it's a thought. what's a thought? i could present arrow as a "universal modelling" framework abi: YACVPT is Yet Another Crappy Visual Pseudo-Theory hey! yeah! i think that i should be insulted. why so? well, are you drawing conclusions about my own theory. ? no. oh but beware of the trap! you can do better. well, i'm struggling to formalize the theory, and it just doesn't relate closely enough to current formalisms. (if you WANT to) i definitely WANT to. 06:30pm reminds me of a remark made at the conference on A.I.T. what remark was that? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us229.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hi hcf hoy water "what's a definition for a good universal system?" "well, it's like intelligent people -- any intelligent people can recognize any other intelligent people as such" hmm "good universal systems can recognize any other good universal system as such" i think that i can relate that to arrow, in a small way. if you can't be expressed relatively simply in another existing universal formalism, there must be a problem somewhere. arrow should be able to recognize other systems by their abilities to remodel their information. and unless you can give a good reason why that somewhere be in existing formalisms, then you must admit that this somewhere is in yours. but what universal formalisms exist? set theory category theory umm. no. first order logic i can express those in mine. but can you express yours in them? i can't express mine in theirs without contradictions. why not? maybe you need intuitionnistic logic? that's ok because the full theory allows lots of things that they forbid. like? like is it in the range of 0x00000000 to 0xffffffff? abi: forget like Fare: I forgot like abi: forget like water, I didn't have anything matching like hmm you slow typist! you must be yet another dumb american ;-> well, my relations (graphs) can have arrows referencing the graph itself or other arrows in that graph. * water/#tunes is on a friend's machine with no scripts. water: that's no problem :P you can very well express that within set theory set theory can express quite arbitrary graphs. a set whose elements include itself? sure no way. that's bs. sets of sets in ZF must be classes. there are variants of set theory in which it can't be done directly as internal sets, but even then, it can be simulated as an internal sub-theory 'simulated' is not the same water: well, yes and no in the case at hand, you're only asked to simulate arrow within set theory set theory is universal up to simulation, not up to direct expression not just that, though. arrow is relativised, too. arrows exist relative to ontologies. infinite ontologies, infinite axioms, ... arrow is supposed to directly express those languages. (i mean set theory, ...) 06:40pm = "those languages" hum must really go sleep ok i have to go for a bit as well (go home, that is) may you have pleasant dreams. :) brb all. -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving) 06:50pm -:- jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes -:- jdl has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: www.tunes.org is back up jim! 07:00pm Fare! Fare? Fare is probably sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) that may disconnect him anytime hmm.... <_QZ> heh me? abi: me? no idea, jdl abi: Jim? i don't know, jdl <_QZ> hmm somehow bitchx is reporting the time as 6 hours ahead bitchx? i heard bitchx was based on epic which is based on ircii, so you could say it is an improvement since they added features each time :) abi: stats? Since Thu Jun 10 13:23:35 1999, there have been 7 modifications and 17 questions. I have been awake for 5 hours, 43 minutes, 32 seconds this session, and currently reference 2147 factoids. abi: jdl is not going to have a factoid. :) abi: me? rumour has it jdl is not going to have a factoid * jdl/#tunes wonders how Arrow represents logical contradictions * jdl/#tunes wonders who shaves the barber... * jdl/#tunes wonders when water is getting back * jdl/#tunes wonders as he wanders to another window. beep him if you need him om 07:10pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) abi: tril? tril is a security person. for tunes, though ,not unix ;) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-205-34.s34.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- s_r [s_r@phila-dialup031.nni.com] has joined #tunes QZ, how's work on BriX? QZ? somebody said QZ was the two least used letters of the alphabet <_QZ> its flying along <_QZ> at this rate i should have the kernel finished in a week hmmmm BriX is going to rock <_QZ> im going thru all the kernel functions and debugging them in my head <_QZ> right now so, there's the object oriented nature of the OS the kernel is a message passing center and you have services running as processes? <_QZ> ya is it like Mach? <_QZ> no <_QZ> its like mach in that its a microkernel and everything runs in userspace <_QZ> but it doesnt run normal processes explain. <_QZ> there are object spaces that u send messages to and those messages are run as threads in that space it doesn't run normal processes? <_QZ> methods are the code that is run for a message Virix?> <_QZ> u never "run programs" in brix Virix? i guess Virix is a new OS that will become YAOS :) (i hope not) 07:20pm is Brix going to be a good server OS <_QZ> brix is one big collection of objects that send messages around to form the illusion of an os with apps when will Brix be functional as Linux? <_QZ> ya brix can serve good, it is also naturally distributed <_QZ> brix will be to the point that linux is in alot less time then it took linux to get there <_QZ> cuz u dont have apps in brix so in a couple months? i want to start using Brix :) <_QZ> u will be able to start using brix when the kernel is finished Brix is going to be better than Linux? <_QZ> hahah u cant compare brix to linux <_QZ> brix, tunes, clementine anddolphin are in their own league of OSes <_QZ> they cant be compared to linux, windows, macos etc... <_QZ> they are a million times better hmmm Brix won't stand a chance against Windows ;) clementine? i guess clementine is a modular OS being written by core (mailto:core@tunes.org) dolphin? <_QZ> http://dolphin.openprojects.net/ isn't Brix going to be just YAOS? <_QZ> NO!! will you use Brix eventually as p0wer's OS :) <_QZ> yup <_QZ> i have a list of goals and when brix reaches them i will switch when do you think that will happen? <_QZ> when it can read my email, browse the web, usenet, mp3, coding, audio cd then i will switch BeOS? <_QZ> that will be less than 6 months after the kernel is done i'll code a TCP/IP stack for it <_QZ> do u know howto? yup well <_QZ> kewl 07:30pm i'll make a high speed TCP/IP stack anyway for Virix actually the way programs use the OS is very different than in a conventional OS qz have you worked on the TCP/IP module for BriX? <_QZ> i know howto do the ethernet, sound, gfx, etc and i have done some tcp research but it was gonna be the hardest part QZ is BriX going to be bloated? <_QZ> btw tcp will be a filesystem in brix i think they should be objects <_QZ> no, brix apps only send messages to objects aren't you afraid BriX will become bloated? <_QZ> brix is everything but bloated keep everything in assembly language <_QZ> the ofs is a special object that is hooked to the kernel and handles laoding objects requested by other objects have control over your OS with asm <_QZ> the object hands the kernel an object pointer and the kernel hands it to the ofs <_QZ> the ofs then figures out where the pointer points to <_QZ> the ofs then requests the object from that store what makes BriX fast? <_QZ> no, only the kernel will be done in asm <_QZ> brix only loads what it needs, when it needs it <_QZ> why load wordperfect to view a text file qz so it strays from the practice of overloading that makes Linux bloated? <_QZ> er, that didnt come out right <_QZ> why should i have to load all the editing crap in wordperfect to view a document <_QZ> what os do u use? Win <_QZ> how many apps do u have that display raw ascii text? 2 or more _part_ of the functionality is displaying ascii text but they often do more <_QZ> do any of them really make the text look different than the others? no <_QZ> in brix that ascii viewer is a method <_QZ> and any other object can use it <_QZ> its like a plugin os <_QZ> no apps, just plugins 07:40pm <_QZ> u can still have 100 different methods to view ascii text but YOU the user gets to pick the one that everything uses <_QZ> or u can install more than one and switch between then <_QZ> them <_QZ> one viewer would display the ascii text as normal text, another would render that text as if it where html code, ... when do you feel it will be good enough to release in source code form? <_QZ> maybe a week after i release the kernel binary so that will be approximately when? <_QZ> thats about how long it will take me to change all my comments and semi optimize the code <_QZ> 2 weeks? >>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us229.javanet.com] requested PING 929069389 from TUNES <_QZ> if a cop had u in handcuffs and u were emotionally distrot could u give him yer correct birthdate? I would have a total nervous breakdown... =( <_QZ> what if he gave u three attempts to answer correctly? prbably wouldn't remember my own name <_QZ> do u all know yer zip code? <_QZ> or what city u live in? -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-23.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes QZ are you going to allow other people to contribute to BriX like they did to Linux in its early stages? ha ha! i have returned! :) water -> tao sr: :) 07:50pm <_QZ> s_r: yes and no abi: tao? tao is an expression of the Water :DDDD <_QZ> i will have restrictions that allow the same freedom as linux but keep me in control QZ have you ever used BeOS? I think you should aim for BriX to be that fast and responsive * water/#tunes used BeOS pr2 for PowerPC for a while. private release???? <_QZ> did u know that M$ could take the linux kernel and all the gnu software, tack on the windows UI, port all their apps to it and it would overtake redhat and become the major version of linux used preview release <_QZ> i have beos R3.2 demo cd M$? M$ is fucking their developers hehe <_QZ> micro$oft oh QZ what do you think of BeOS? <_QZ> beos is nice BriX should be as fast as BeOS? <_QZ> it has a few flaws tho indeed it does have flaws <_QZ> all its multithreaded power and its only single user <_QZ> what a waste perhaps there is a good reason for that, perhaps technical <_QZ> its also very much not free and open source that too however, it is relatively cheap. what part of BeOS makes it fast? <_QZ> it is fast and the UI is somewhat more responsive than other OSes i HATE OSes that aren't open source it spawns threads for nearly all inter-process and kernel interactions. that makes it fast -:- Niobe [chaldea@ppp-061.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes <_QZ> crap <_QZ> i hate arosnet it also has a relatively unified code base, with support for things that MS and Apple struggle for, because it is new. <_QZ> they say that php3 has a security hole so they moved it to another server and removed it from the kernel and i have to change all my php3 stuff to run like cgi. they enabled it temporarily while i fix all my pages -:- Niobe is now known as beholder hi beh Hey hoy, beholder hey Beholder Girlfriend was using my IRC client :) UniOS/AKOS oh 08:00pm * water/#tunes fights off his drunken roommates. -:- jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes hey jim! hi all I'm looking for some help... w/ what? I need an algorithm: DAMMIT input #1: Arbitrary-length string of decimal digits representing an integer Be doesn't sell the demo CD anymore ouput: Arbitrary-length string of binary digits representing same integer constraint: don't use an arbitrary amount of memory :) jdl: not too hard. anyone have a pointer? -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ hey tril water: no, I thought not. But algo's aren't my strong point. BLAH BLAM tril: fun with the web server? BLAM! BLAM! BLAM BLAM BLAM!!!! (Damn cockroaches...) water, are you referring to bespin being unreacahble earlier? jdl: just consider it a "ripple-converter" and maintain a certain number of characters (4 for 2^4=16 > 10) for carries. tril: yes. water the server had nothing to do with it, it was the downstream provider oh jdl: make sense? as usual water: that was my basic thought, but for some reason I'm having trouble with it... care to elaborate? tril: so what's bugging you? QZ: is BriX going to be like BeOS> * beholder/#tunes took 2 hours coming up with a simple algo to convert a 4 dim addressing scheme into a one dim array... damn useless brain you mean why I said BLAH? A gas pipeline ruptured and a large explosion ocurred in my town. this caused my electricity to flicker, my computer stayded on but the zip drive reset and I lost a few hours of work due to linux failing to save when the scsi module acted up jdl: just convert each digit to a sequence of binary characters, based on position in the digit string, and include a 'register' for the final binary position of the bits. tril: wow. i mean WOW. of course it's my fault i should have saved to another drive as well the explosion shouldn't have anything to do with the network outage, since that happened earlier oh Tril: where are you? bellingham WA jdl: got the general idea? water: the general idea, yes. Specifics... no. How would position affect sequence of chars? (I am assuming one character processed at a time) 08:10pm jdl: actually, you'd have to modify my idea somewhat, since the 'register' would eventually overflow. :( * Tril/#TUNES allocates an infinite register * jdl/#tunes buys an infinite computer * jdl/#tunes finds his bank account infinitely overdrawn ;) water: my original thought was to start at 'head' of string (MSD), but now I think starting w/ LSD might work better (If not, I could at least enjoy the psychadelic effects...) * jdl/#tunes winks jdl: one char at a time, yes. digital position would result in having to increment binary position by 3. yes, lsd water: ah, at least now what you're saying will make sense :) jdl: then add your binary sequence twice at different bit-positions. water: can you give an example? Let's do '42' 2+8=2^0+2^3=10 ok water: ah, I see... first digit 2 2 -> 0010 <_QZ> the woman continued....."I want to be buried <_QZ> holding a fork in my right hand." Little... James Little. Agent 0010. this first digit is simple, of course. water: I think I understand, but carry (wink) on... 4 -> 0100 but, to multiply by ten, increment the binary char pointer by 3 char's. what are you guys talking about? I'll explain... * water/#tunes is mulling over the logic to make sure... Tril: It's an algo to convert arbitrary integer from string of digits (42) to string of bits (101010) tril: without letting memory use go through the roof Tril: Prism supports an 'infinite integer' metamodel, so now I need way to parse infinite digit strings when I have integers in a language Tril: Arbitrary, not infinite :) unbounded Tril: right :) does this converter need to be LR(1)? 08:20pm Tril: no, it's going to handle integers only. The integer will come in as one big token, so we can attack the problem from the LSD -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-131.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <_water> ok i'm back -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-23.tscnet.net]) Tril: or the MSD if necessary, but I think LSD would be easier... -:- _water is now known as water well, it's a sort of ripple adder i've got it water: cool once the bit-vector is made, increment the binary char pointer by 1 char then add the bit-vector at that position water: clear as mud then increment by two, and add again water: let's do the '42' example again ok we're clear about what happens to two: our sum is now 0010 a string of bits. water: sure. 4 -> 0100 -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup031.nni.com]) now, we shift by 1, so BitPtr=2, not 1 then add: 0010 +0100 oops ? well, we would now have 01010 water: yeah, but answer is 101010 :) i'm getting to that! now, BitPtr+=2 char's, so BitPtr==4 now, add again water: wait a sec... oh. oops. water: BitPtr progression is.... 1, 2, 4, 8, ...? 1,2, 4, 7, 11, ...? jdl: it should be 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,... 1, 1, 3, 5, 8, 13,...? :) i think. not sure, now. what happened to 3 & 9... and why? oh, and 6 too well, i'm adding each converted digit twice at positions offset by 2 08:30pm hmm... but i don't get the right answer that way. (2,4), (5,7), (8, 11), ... jdl: yes jdl: no water: no biggie, as long as it's a cool algo :) (8,10) right ;) well, wrong, i think. it didn't work right for 42. hmm... I'm working on an attack of my own, but not very promising wrt mem usage thus far... let's analyze what happens between digits. or CPU for that matter I'm trying to find patterns in the binary representations of 10^0, 10^1, 10^2... for each digit, the next digit just adds a number that = digit * 10 ^ (DigitPtr-1) Let's make DigitPtr zero based. digit*10^DigitPtr which means that for each position, the multiplier *= 10 zero-based or one-based is irrelevant you guys ever heard of shift instructions? it seems to me you're making this overly complicated.. water: obviously, but easier to conceive if it matches exponent :) Tril: Please expound. Simple is good tril: i know about shifts, but i'm trying to make it math. correct. Besides, shift is very easy in Prism (god, do i know about shifts) water: besides, zero-based is standard it's still irrelevant for an inductive process. *10 = >>1 and >>3 water: I know, just trying to simplify water: doesn't matter, just tell me which one you're using 42=32+8+2 = 2^5+2^3+2^1 = 101010 b ahh! ahh-ha! AAAAAAAHHHhhhh!!!! we have to shift a total of four for an entire digit add. sum[b](A mod[a] B^k) (Jammed my pinky) 08:40pm something like that.. Tril: we're making streams => an extra shift of 1 after each digit * Tril/#TUNES goes back to zelda * Tril/#TUNES is away: (AFK) [BX-MsgLog Off] => shift one, add 0100 => 01010. then shift another two, add 0100 => 0101010, then shift another one for the next digit tril: don't go! * beholder/#tunes like zelda too... fun game :) it works fine! * water/#tunes can play the entire zelda series on his laptop :) wat: Even Zelda-64? beh: well, not zelda64, yet. but soon! water: except for the lawyers... :( water: ok, let's do 100 => 1100100 wat: I have it running on my system... the emu's are just experimental at the moment jdl: ok beh: cool! first digit 0 basically, shift 4 add nothing water: last four binary digits are 0100... wat: And you need a 3DFX based 3D accelerator beh: have that, but doubt it'll work on my P90 :) beh: doh! (must wait for desktop system) jdl: PII-233 minimum I think... jdl: ok, i see your point jdl: we should work from the msd first, then? water: Not sure. My attack has been: well I must be off now, tired :) 42 = 4*10^1 + 2*10^0 -:- beholder [chaldea@ppp-061.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] night, beh water: trying to find patterns in exponents. Problem is that this consumes unbounded memory. s/exponents/powers of 10 represented in binary/ jdl: sure. what about bit-shifting, like tril said? can it be done without an expanding register? water: I wasn't sure what Tril meant. (I understand bit-shifting, just not how he would use it) water: not sure what you mean by that wait. i have an idea 08:50pm Also, didn't understand sum[b](A mod[a] B^k) we should stick with lsd, but generalize the procedure for nth digit. ok... This is interesting... it's also difficult Well, yes, but I meant what I was about to type... :) oh I've found a pattern, I think, in 10^x when represented in binary If N is an arbitrary bit string and X is a bit string of 'x' zeroes (as in 10^x), then... Binary representation of 10^x is NX. I.e., 100 = N00 1000 = N000 10000 = N0000 etc I only calculated through 10^9, though. And I see no patterns in N. hmm However, this means that any algo which moves more than one binary digit per decimal digit has to be wrong. I think. Because N is arbitrary. maybe the real pattern is obscured by the sum could be 09:00pm jdl: the mod idea might help instead of digit by digit, in a single run... I was just thinking about that. That's just the standard technique for decimal -> binary, right? water: ? actually, i'm going to drop it. i should be working on tunes and arrow. okay... you did say it was easy, though :) jdl: it probably is, but we're looking at it the wrong way. water: probably... oh well. Thanks for trying I'll probably post to the list if I can't figure it out ok 09:10pm -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-131.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-243.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: lucas.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [09:32pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lucas.openprojects.net] -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-243.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-65.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #tunes <_BC> Hi! hi bc <_BC> Hi water. Is it nice being a fluid? * _BC/#tunes :) sorry * water/#tunes relaxes as a puddle in the corner of the room. yes, indeed. * _BC/#tunes relaxes in a chair of his own design. :) -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-162.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <_water> i'm back. sorry <_BC> gasp... i see a reflection in the water.. <_water> hehe <_BC> are you a programmer water? or do you just go with the flow? :) <_water> yes <_water> bc: are you a tuneser? -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-65.tscnet.net]) -:- _water is now known as water <_BC> ah, yes - a programmer. I take it. :) yes i am something like a programmer too... <_BC> hmmm i'm not a 'tuneser'... I'm not sure what a tuneser is... but if it has Gillian Anderson in it, I'm there! :) abi: what is tunes? well, tunes is a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system tunes is also for programming languages what the internet is to networks. okay, water. abi: what is tunes? somebody said tunes was a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks. <_BC> ohmy. it is a programmers marathon then. 09:50pm <_BC> abi: what is reflective? _bc: i don't know <_BC> hmm interesting nlp'ism.. <_BC> hardly.. but nevertheless, interesting., -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-162.tscnet.net]) <_BC> I'm wondering if there is a convenient protected mode shell i can use for my OS. a set of routines for using 386+ stuffs. <_QZ> _BC: did u know that gillian anderson is a dink -:- SignOff _BC: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #tunes * _BC/#tunes somehow my client crashed... <_QZ> _BC: did i upset u with that gillian comment? <_BC> QZ: How could GA be a dink? She is a SHE. * _BC/#tunes and WHAT a she! i guess a she is 25 <_BC> abi: shhh <_BC> :) <_QZ> have u ever seen her talk, not act? <_BC> Yes I have. She is, non conformant. :) <_QZ> she uses "uhhhhhh" to hold the moment while she thinks <_BC> hehe. Well, don't most people do that when on camera? <_QZ> if u like her alot it might interest u to know that she was a port star before getting her role on the xfiles <_BC> port? <_QZ> porn <_QZ> just goto a porn store and ask for her movies <_BC> i doubt it. i think some nudies, but not porn. Do you have evidence? <_QZ> ya i got evidence <_BC> wow <_QZ> email her fan club and ask her <_QZ> what more evidence do u need <_QZ> everyone knows that she was a porn star <_BC> hmm well perhaps i will have to explore these, evidences.. :) <_QZ> do u watch star trek? <_BC> uuhhhhhh.. ST... what's that? <_BC> what about star trek? <_QZ> its also got lots of ex-porn stars 10:00pm <_BC> aren't weather girls too? <_QZ> not the ones here, i mean they could be, but they arent <_QZ> anyway this conversation has gone too far and should not be in the tunes log <_BC> true.. :) <_BC> can i ask you about PM ? <_QZ> sure <_BC> kool. I am hoping to see a PM source(s) for managing typical 386+ ops, like mem-mapping, exceptions,; the regular.. <_BC> Woould you know of one I could utilise for my OS? <_BC> one other suggested i strip Minix source for it, but I'd prefer something cleaner. -:- Linden2 [kiss@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #Tunes <_BC> QZ? QZ is, like, the two least used letters of the alphabet <_BC> hi linden Hi _BC <_QZ> here i will give u the src to brix <_BC> the src to brix? <_QZ> source <_QZ> brix? i heard brix was a free open source persistent multithreaded multi-user OO computing environment located at http://www.qzx.com/brix Bye everyone :) -:- Linden2 [kiss@pine.Alberni.Net] has left #Tunes [] 10:10pm <_BC> yes. i was a lil surprised is all. is it big? <_QZ> very small <_QZ> only about 7000 lines of asm <_QZ> but u aint gonna get it all :) <_BC> not expecting. thanks! <_QZ> just the chunks u requested above <_QZ> just as soon as i fix the page that i just f**ked up <_BC> segmentation? seg. protection? <_QZ> try to goto the brix page <_BC> sorry, i can't right now.. browser messed up. <_QZ> its giving me an access denied for www.qzx.com/brix but www.qzx.com/brix/index.cgi works <_BC> odd. is it open/lck? <_QZ> open/lck? <_BC> open, or locked. <_QZ> -rwxr-xr-x 1 qz users 1242 Jun 10 23:12 index.cgi* <_BC> seems good. index.html? <_QZ> i dont use .html pages anymore <_BC> ooh. i haven't heard of that. <_QZ> all my pages are dynamically generated when u load them <_QZ> and after this change forced change from .php3 to .cgi all the brix info pages will be in an sql dbase <_BC> what is php3? somebody said php3 was a server side preprocessing language <_QZ> 40 info files and i have to make them all +x, add "-rwxr-xr-x 1 qz users 1242 Jun 10 23:12 index.cgi* <_QZ> oosp <_BC> oh. wwoow. sounds good. 10:20pm <_BC> hmmm. which asm supports 386+ mnemonics? A86? should I get nasm? <_QZ> ah there we go, the brix directory was 711 :) <_QZ> nasm <_BC> ok Hi all Either of you good with algorithms? <_BC> hi jdl * _BC/#tunes probably not. Free to ask tho. This is a tough one... somebody must have solved it at some point though Given an arbitrary length string of decimal digits representing an integer, return a string of binary digits representing the same integer. <_BC> hmmm. don't know. but if i had an idea, i would be confused if you wanted a string type returned, or a char* type returned. <_BC> oopsd i mean Doesn't matter <_BC> i mean a char* (string) or a long type. A string. <_BC> there is a APM library available, have you seen it? (APM arbitrary precision math) <_BC> it might include a int-string routine. ...And it has to work for arbitrary-length strings, so you can't convert it to a long and then convert it into binary digits. And I can't use a library. But I can look at source, is APM open-source? <_BC> it is also source i think. okay, _BC. abi: forget it jdl: I forgot it <_QZ> _BC: i gotta goto sleep now, i'll send u that src tomorrow night <_BC> thanks. uh, how you sending it? 10:30pm <_QZ> i will zip up the files and dcc them <_BC> ok. thanks qZ <_QZ> they should only be about 3meg zipped <_BC> heheh <_QZ> :) <_BC> small u say <_BC> 3 meg of zipped assembler you say? <_QZ> ~/BRiX is 2.6meg unzipped <_BC> neat. so the zip must be smaller, then, right? <_QZ> -rw-rw-r-- 1 brand brand 315411 May 25 23:58 BRiX.0.0.1-25may99.tgz <_BC> cough.. hmm. thats one big exponent there! :) <_BC> ok. thanks QZ <_QZ> exponent? <_BC> well, properly i mean "order of magnitude". -:- SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving) <_BC> byefornow <_QZ> cya -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff _BC: #TUNES (I toss myself out of an airlock and try to sing....) 10:40pm -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-109.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes anyone here? 10:50pm -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-109.tscnet.net]) -:- jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes Darn, missed him. :( -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-64.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes Ah, you're back indeed I solved the algorithm good. how does it work? O(n) mem usage, O(n log n) CPU well, that's not so good, then. i thought the goal included O(0) mem usage. pretty obvious once you think of it... our mistake was to want to process each character and then move on. water: No, you misunderstand. O(n) including the input string. That's the usage required for the input string, nothing more. O(0) additional oh, ok :) so, you could use it to process a stream, then? No, you have to have access to the entire string, and the entire string is iterated (log n) times. That's why CPU is O(n log n) ok s/(log n)/O(log n)/ i think i see where this is going, then. Yeah, probably so... care to take a guess? not really, i'm thinking about some other things. sour grapes :) yeah, yeah. just get to the punch line. 11:20pm The answer is to use the standard decimal->binary algorithm, but to adapt it for strings. oh. that's it? I.e., instead of saying "subtract one" just say "convert right-most character from 1->0, 3->2, 5->4, ... Yep, that's it. Like I said, pretty obvious in retrospect. Our mistake was trying to do it character by character. ok. So what are you working on? arrow, specifically ontologies. i'm also considering changing the arrow vocabulary before releasing the first paper as a finished product either change or clarify, that would be good basically, adhering more to the mathematical terms * jdl/#tunes nods the ones in my research, not in the paper. ok What about ontologies? well, they basically act as a pseudo-meta-theory over the basic arrow theory, and i'm trying to formally relate the relativism of ontologies to existing theory. Which existing theory? the only result i can show is that arrow theory itself is a Universal Theory with respect to logics finite and infinite. (Although I would say the basic arrow theory acts as a meta-theory over ontologies, but that's just me) any existing theory ah... yes, the hard part. it relates to several, but not closely enough to any of them. BTW, saw your earlier discussion with Fare. Don't know what a Universal Theory is, but I know I can represent Arrow in Prism. :) (And presumably vice-versa, once you get the kinks worked out) represent structures with two references, maybe represent an arrow environment, i tend to disagree with. Okay, what is an arrow environment, then? jdl: the maude language site has a paper called "Axioms.ps" about reflection and re-write logics that answers that question about UT. abi: maude? somebody said maude was at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ 11:30pm jdl: it's basically an ontology that casts all possible information as arrows. that makes it far more than infinite. water: is it, itself, represented with arrows? jdl: i should hope so, otherwise i couldn't reflect Well, then I can represent it in Prism. :) bs this isn't like ordinary systems it's not first-order, and you can't factor out a first-order language without an ontology that omits most of the system to avoid contradictions. Prism is Turing-complete. QED. (If you can do it in Squeak, I can do it in Prism.) arrow is (something like) a universal turing machine. again, bs jdl: i'm NOT doing it in squeak Then what ARE you doing in squeak? i'm implementing it in squeak, an entirely different matter. the code is user-choice. Sure... you could implement it in C if you wanted. i can't re-model the arrow system within squeak not without doing it manually. Remodel? my brain would be doing all the work You mean, represent the same concept in a different ontology? jdl: basically, yes. Presumably, Arrow can remodel itself regardless of implementation environment. presumably, yes. hopefully, so. That is the question. :) that's model-level (or model-theoretic) reflection When I said, "Prism can represent Arrow," I meant, "Prism can represent an ArrowWorld." But... i believe it is possible, because arrow lacks the restrictions which appear to forbid this in ordinary systems jdl: two different things. ArrowWorld is a user-chosen class implementation. because Prism doesn't represent ontologies internally, it can't map Arrow ontolgoies to Prism ontologies. Arrow (not the class) is an information filter for the world in terms of a single semantics-deprived construct. i don't know about that Re: ArrowWorld. Whatever... Prism can represent the graph of arrows, but it can't 'reason' about them without programmer intervention. 11:40pm Of course, if you can solve the model-level reflection problem, there's probably no reason I couldn't use your ideas to do the same for Prism. :) and it can't transform programmer intervention into system deduction right. that may be the key All remodeling in Prism is done through specific ontology-tuple scripts provided by the programmer. honestly, i'd say that only one or two people other than myself have even an intuitive grasp on my system. jdl: i should tell you then: the new terms include "frame" which is both graph and ontology. I think I understand what you're doing, but I'm still not sure if it's possible. :) water: That's probably what I call a metamodel. no Metamodel is to ontology as model(/arrow) is to concept. your metamodels are definitely a subset of frames A metamodel is a model of an ontology. Except that I allow natural language, so it's not formal. And it's external to Prism. which makes proofs next to impossible, and prism lame. Only if Arrow is possible. If not, then it makes Prism realistic. :) besides, we have different goals. you cripple it what are your goals? Also, metamodels MAY be defined internally to Prism, they just aren't required to be. Though mixing formal w/ nonformal metamodels could be ugly. Goals: very ugly, which makes prism very non-useful To make programming easier through the use of multiple domain-specific languages. easy? ? look, prism isn't for tunes, agreed? It could be. no yes, you just have to solve the model-level reflection problem. That hasn't been my priority, but Prism supports it. it's supposed to make _programming_ easy, not make it useful or blur the distinction between programming and using. Using IS programming. jdl: bs 11:50pm Sure, although it tends to be interactive, and thus has a temporal element. Is shell programming programming? jdl: but using isn't nearly as powerful as programming. there's a political distinction. If so, how does that differ from typing the same commands interactively on the command line? today, power = cryptic => borders between people. Prism does blur the distinction between programming and using, because DSL's are so high-level they can be programmed by everyday users. bullshit!!! HTML is a DSL. * water/#tunes can't believe he's listening to this. html is cryptic html is not for users. You could think of Word as a visual programming environment. :) html is bloated and inefficient, and requires programmers to make easier for users. but word is less powerful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DSL's ARE less powerful. They aren't general purpose. That's why Prism's goal is to allow multiple DSL's to interoperate. Power is combinatorially related to diversity of DSL's. and to change the situation, the less powerful must rely on the more powerful to change their plight - a losing situation. ever use a class library? i think i'm going to be sick, listening to this garbage. don't you understand what tunes is about?? In using Squeak, you are using software created by others more powerful than yourself (when it comes to Squeak)... you are relying on them. i have no choice. i want to change that Same for any compiler you've ever used, unless you wrote it yourself. not enhance it !!!! that's WRONG!!!! i.e. evil! So everybody should write their own compilers? it makes the individual a machine part!! jdl: yes!!! Using TUNES? god, have you no imagination! ? not using. Should they also stop relying on the more powerful engineers at Intel and manufacture their own CPU's? yes!! no knowledge should be difficult or domain-restricted that's what arrow is about unifying human knowledge while increasing its diversity There isn't enough time in the world for everybody to become expert on CPU design, compiler design, language design, and whatever else they REALLY want to do with their life. bullshit. the academic tradition is DESIGNED to prevent that it should take no time at all to learn ANYTHING. Human limits... no headaches. [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0611 IRC log ended Fri Jun 11 00:00:00 1999