IRC log started Mon May 17 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0517 -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh6-port224.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) -:- NetSplit: crichton.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [06:00am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [crichton.openprojects.net] -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- NetSplit: koontz.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [07:58am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [koontz.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: koontz.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net -:- timestamp [dancer2@207.16.36.12] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- harfcore [sdafas_@128.198.160.123] has joined #Tunes -:- harfcore has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Crack Babies Unite! !koontz.openprojects.net!! Received :varley.openprojects.net SERVER sterling.openprojects.net from varley.openprojects.net !?! -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [08:05am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- harfcore [sdafas_@128.198.160.123] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff harfcore: #TUNES (Signed off) -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.109.80] has joined #tunes -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.109.80] has left #tunes [] -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by carter.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Your client may not be compatible with this server. (from crichton.openprojects.net) -:- Compatible clients are available at ftp //ftp.undernet.org/pub/irc/clients(from crichton.openprojects.net) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[206.63.100.13] by crichton.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[206.63.100.13]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is devlin.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 (from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Sat Jan 23 1999 at 21 33:38 EST(from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- devlin.openprojects.net u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(5)] 2% -:- [global users on irc(103)] 35% -:- [invisible users on irc(192)] 65% -:- [ircops on irc(21)] 7% -:- [total users on irc(295)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(35)] (avg. 8 users per server) -:- [total channels created(77)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !devlin.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 23 (21 clients) -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Crack Babies Unite! -:- topic set by harfcore [Mon May 17 02:35:33 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:3)] [ TUNES ] [ Fare ] [ timestamp ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.886 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #Tunes -:- yery [ost@benetnash.ffke-campus.mipt.ru] has joined #Tunes hello -:- endsley [testuser@gw.varesearch.com] has joined #tunes ole 'morning privet -:- endsley [testuser@gw.varesearch.com] has left #tunes [] how are things, Fare? 12:00pm -:- SignOff yery: #TUNES (Started wasting time elsewhere) -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250094.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) -:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #tunes -:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has left #tunes [] * Fare/#Tunes is back -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Fare] by ChanServ -:- cline [cline@209.209.19.30] has joined #tunes cline: hello Fare:hi 04:00pm well, the tunes project is for a reflective OS based on a high-level language Any particular model OS? unix-like? or something compleatly different? completely different more like LISP OSes of old, perhaps except that we'll be multiuser, where they were single-user only the "user" concept will be smoother -- anyone can craete "subusers" by just restricting or filtering resource access any lisp os around, that will run on current hardware? (i practically feel like an OS collector now days) yes and no LISP guys failed, because they went heavily proprietary did any OS ever really get compleated in lisp? so that their OSes only ran on proprietary hardware (boxes or extension cards for Macs). Although there is a lisp machine emulator faster than the original hardware running on Alphas under OSF (now Tru64) for ~$8000 not only were the OSes completed, but they had the most integrated OO interface ever written on earth you could click anywhere on the screen, and access the *object* pointed to dynamically with the full power of an integrated OO language there was an OS implemented in SML (a more modern functional programming language), but they focused on the low-level parts, and never designed an interface, except a web server whoa, thats alot of money for a piece of software (remember talking to a linux person, who hasnt bought a piece of software in like 2 years) 04:10pm how long ago was this writen? I live fully on free software ever since I installed linux in 1992 (ok, I've bought proprietary software for my father; and maybe even a few games with my brother) hehe I havent even done that, I kept running win 3.1 for a long time, ran win95 for less than a year then ditched it, in search of something that didnt crash when I did something lisp machines were developed in the late 70's, made proprietary very early in the 80's, deployed later in the 80's -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes Is there actually a project, to get this, and if so, how big is the project? you mean, the tunes project? well, we've been developing ideas for years. there are now two people developing kindof a "kernel", each on his own (but with cvs access), as a low-level framework to develop a reflective system upon and I'm meant to write a compiler from a lisp dialect to assembly that would interact with these kernels but I haven't even begun I'm more like writing down ideas and recruiting people :( Id love to help, but all I know is a little c and c++ (more c++), im a cs major, oh and I spent about 8 years writing basic, but in the real world, that doesnt mean jack -:- HickServ [Algernon@209.68.229.37] has joined #tunes hey all 04:20pm basic? c? c++? yuck! basic yuck c good c++ great C good, for a few low-level things. anything i make super great C++, horrid asm asm asm i hope you see hehehe hey, I like c, and I like c++ more... but basic, was basicly a waist of time asm, indispensible, for a very few low-level things. yeah i just go ahead and do my etire kernel in it what is the best way to pass messages to kernels? Hick: the best way is not to Hick: the best way is not to have a kernel see http://www.tunes.org/papers/Glossary/index.html#kernel um sorry but that wouldn't suite what im doing what are you doing? yes i've read about os's without kerenels but there are problems with that cline: I invite you to learn functional programming after having been a basic/c/c++ guy (with HP RPL experience, too), it opened my mind i'm writing an os(preferably a stable one what kind of OS, with what design goals? but that wasn't what i asked oh -:- NetSplit: koontz.openprojects.net split from mccaffrey.openprojects.net [04:27pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [koontz.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: koontz.openprojects.net mccaffrey.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #Tunes -:- cline [cline@209.209.19.30] has joined #Tunes -:- HickServ [Algernon@209.68.229.37] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Fare] by koontz.openprojects.net well basically a *stable* os with a microkernel that is multi-user time sharing and multitasking/multithreading Im looking threw a lisp tutorial right now, and boy does this seem odd where?!?!?! i really want to learn lisp 04:30pm HickServ as soon as I can figure out how to get lynx to tell me the url, ill give it to ya oh http://www.eecs.tulane.edu/webcourses/lisp/lisp3.html Hick: are these constraints arbitrary, or are they themsevles the answer to a more abstract problem? for instance "stable" just means it's bug-free so that it doesn't count well not exactly although it suggests a choice of high-level tools to avoid bugs monolithical kernels have proved in the past to be much more stable than microkerenls cline: don't let yourself be confused by the syntax the very interest of lisp is dropping any syntactic complication, so you can focus on semantics what is tunes by the way? lisp ownz it's like lambda calculus Fare: Perhaps a book on lisp would be a better idea.. HS: well, you can read the Tunes pages; i wanna make a language that is a mix between c and lisp David madore has an interesting introduction to it -- see the sitemap I'd rather have a reflective language, whose "normal" mode is like lisp, and that has "low-level" modes that would be much like BCPL only it would allow much better control than C, by reifying the control structure like in Scheme i don't actually mean it literallly i mean the low level of c and the power of lisp 04:40pm cline: are you keen on math? if so, try "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" from MIT Press, by Abelson, sussman& Sussman Fare: yeah, untill computer science it was my best subject I just wrote the hello world program in lisp, how cute! cline: well, maybe that SICP book is for you, then! great book, full of insight Definitly take a look, lisp is something I wanted to learn anyway, maybe ill take it up as a hobby this summer cline: well, when you're keener in lisp, feel free to join the tunes project! there are other interesting languages to learn, like Haskell, OCAML, Mercury 04:50pm Fare: have to start somewhere SICP is a very good start afterwards (or in parallel), you may take a course or book on typed lambda-calculus, and aply it with OCAML or Haskell Mercury is good for logic programming i really want to learn lambda calculus im interested in language a lot I may have to wait untill I transfer to actually take a class in any of this, thats ok, not like I learn anything in my c or c++ classes, learn it all sitting right here amazon can bring you SICP in a few days it be cool to write a programming language Hick: welcome to Tunes, then! oh hehehe cool i'd like to help =))) well, we're starting with scheme as a core (or maybe some untyped ML) and trying to add reflection could you tell me about how you want this language to be based? I think that a reflective implementation of scheme could be an ok basis it would have a concept of first-class lexical environments, that could be used to express modules, users, processes, etc all with just one concept mhm reflection is important, for we'd use it to implement orthogonal persistence, typing, real-time behavior, etc also, we'd have commonlisp-like defmacros, only with a well-documented effect wrt environments i see well um how could i help? 05:00pm depends. What would you like to work on? Is there anything particular you like? well im in to both language and os design im interested in your no-kernel idea too anything particular you'd like to do? something you know well and would like to apply? something you don't know well and would really like to learn? to me, language and os come together they are one. becasue i've yet to decide how my personal os will work i see separating them is hypocritical lie like unix and c but even more so you never program in C you program in C-with-the-unix-api or in C++-with-the-Win32-API is it going to be in asm? or what? * cline/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] in Perl-with--the-Unix-API etc i know but what will tunes be done in? * cline/#tunes is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 3 min 57 secs no matter what though, if its portable, its gunna have to be ported, unless you do it like java, which I think is just wierd, it even seems like a work around to a problem to have bytecode like that Tunes will obviously have a little asm part; but most of it ought to be done in its own reflective language, as described above bytecode sucks; at least, as a way to standardize binaries 05:10pm oh bytecode is to programming language implementation what client-server is to distributed system implementation: simple and dumb Its kinda rediculous, the only way its any kind of feasable, is because computers are so fast these days well we'll have to write the language first sure, it is an acceptable way to bootstrap a system but certainly not something someone should boast about a bytecode means you don't have time to do things efficiently, and are having a quick&dirty dumb slow implementation of the thing I dont like it at all, i dont like java at all well, java is very bad, but *still* better than C++ um you think java is better than c i think you're on crack I didn't say than C, but than C++ oh yes well hmmmm C isn't quite the same. C is a low-level language. And when aimed at low-level things, it's rather good. i don't know too much about java so i won't speak C++ is a hype-level language. When aimed at anything, it's rather bad. how long has the tunes been around and how many people are working on it? I think Tunes officially began in december 1994 or so oh hmmmmm rather old i thought i was getting inot something new hehehe been doing it mostly alone, although since last year, people have been helping me a lot cool -:- SignOff cline: #TUNES (cline has no reason) where are you right now? see http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma/tunes#browse for tunes mailing list archives yeah i joined -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving) actually, it's october 1994 05:20pm * Fare/#Tunes is away -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh1-port77.snet.net] has joined #tunes whats up everyone 06:40pm -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.135.27] has joined #tunes hey has anyone seen ruiner? 07:00pm where is ruiner? 08:10pm argh! if anyone cares... if ruiner stops by tell him to check his e-mail bye all thanks -:- SignOff carlito: #TUNES (Leaving) 08:30pm -:- HickServ [Algernon@209.68.229.38] has joined #tunes buenas noches a todos! 08:40pm y buenas noches a tu senor Fare 08:50pm hello? 09:00pm -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh6-port175.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- iStormy_ [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes -:- iStormy_ is now known as iStormyII -:- SignOff iStormyII: #TUNES (iStormyII has no reason) -:- lar1 [larman@208.254.225.30] has joined #tunes Hey hey _QZ: If I code raven in 90% inline ASM and 10% C, how much performence decrece would there be from 100% ASM? depends on which 10% is .asm i've read that in most applications 10% of the code runs 90% of the time... 10:30pm basically, all the functions would be asm, and c would be used as a wrapper so you could do 90% C and 10% asm, still have it run almost as fast... it's better to just write certain functions in asm.... because with that you still have all the overhead of C style calls how much overhead is that going to be? I need it to do a fair amount of work _fast_... not like 3d graphics or anything, but still that's why i said it depends... on what procedure you're talking about... if you're talking about something that gets called 1000 times in a loop, then it's a big overhead... if it's the init procedure then that overhead doesn't count worth shit and it's not even worth it to write in straight .asm if you have C... not even worth it to use inline asm... 10:40pm unless it's a huge init... or part of the OS, you should thing of the init just like a whole other modual, and select what parts should be .asm... -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[208.254.225.30]) 10:50pm !xing.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lu.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0518 IRC log ended Tue May 18 00:00:01 1999