IRC log started Thu Jan 14 00:00:01 1999 later QZ.. ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) <_QZ> night ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0114 12:10am ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes lilo? lilo is male, you can get to his home page from the About link on http://www.openprojects.net. what about ^lilo? 04:20am ωνω Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.ml.org] by lackey.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.ml.org]) ωνω Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success ωνω Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] ωνω Your nick [TUNES] is owned by tunes@bespin.ml.org ωνω BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about ωνω Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES_ (from crichton.openprojects.net) ωνω Your host is crichton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie (from crichton.openprojects.net) ωνω This server was cobbled together Sat May 9 1998 at 12 25:56 EDT(from crichton.openprojects.net) ωνω crichton.openprojects.net u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie dioswkfcg biklmnopstv ωνω [local users on irc(6)] 3% ωνω [global users on irc(75)] 41% ωνω [invisible users on irc(110)] 59% ωνω [ircops on irc(12)] 6% ωνω [total users on irc(185)] ωνω [unknown connections(0)] ωνω [total servers on irc(27)] (avg. 6 users per server) ωνω [total channels created(54)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !crichton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 16 (15 clients) ωνω Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES_ ωνω TUNES_ [tunes@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes ωνω [Users(#TUNES:4)] [ TUNES_ ] [ Fare ] [ ^lilo ] [ abi ] ωνω Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998 ωνω BitchX: Join to #tunes was synced in 15.587 secs!! ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes ωνω Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success ωνω Use /Server to connect to a server ωνω Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] ωνω BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about ωνω Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES_ (from sterling.openprojects.net) ωνω Your host is sterling.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 (from sterling.openprojects.net) ωνω This server was cobbled together Wed Dec 2 1998 at 02 26:39 EST(from sterling.openprojects.net) ωνω sterling.openprojects.net u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 dioswkfcg biklmnopstv ωνω [local users on irc(10)] 5% ωνω [global users on irc(81)] 38% ωνω [invisible users on irc(130)] 62% ωνω [ircops on irc(12)] 6% ωνω [total users on irc(211)] ωνω [unknown connections(0)] ωνω [total servers on irc(27)] (avg. 7 users per server) ωνω [total channels created(60)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !sterling.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 23 (22 clients) ωνω Mode change [+f] for user TUNES_ ωνω Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES_ ωνω TUNES_ [tunes@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes ωνω [Users(#TUNES:5)] [ TUNES_ ] [ hcf ] [ Fare ] [ ^lilo ] [ abi ] ωνω Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998 ωνω BitchX: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.459 secs!! ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) π ^lilo/#Tunes is lilo <^lilo> alternate client π ^lilo/#Tunes waves ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has left #Tunes [] 11:30am ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes -^lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. In a moment I'll be adjusting our links just a bit. Please bear with us. ωνω NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [12:09pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #TUNES -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Thanks all. To reiterate, we just moved several servers to a geometry with fewer hops. If you have problems, please let us know. That should be all for a while if it remains stable. -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Oops guys. One more change seems to be required. It'll happen in about 30 seconds if this message does not lag. Thanks -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Thanks all. !Bhaal:*! Thats ok lilo.. Just wish I knew what u was thanking me for? :) !lilo:*! Bhaal for patiently sitting there while everything got straightened out? :) ωνω LinuxUser [root@bjas1-p2.telepac.pt] has joined #tunes How is TUNES ??? ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES nick TUNES >>> You(TUNES_) are now known as TUNES hi Linuxuser tunes is ok.. ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kbair.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes ωνω ultima has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: The Tunes Channel...All mp3-xdcc, All Day Long (NOT!) http://www.tunes.org [cdcc] 1 file offered- /ctcp Tril cdcc send #x for pack #x [cdcc] dcc block size: 2048, slots open:  5/ 5, dcc queue: 10/10 % #1 ( 1.98mb: 0 gets) Parody of "Start Me Up" by the Rolling Stones, purchased by Billy for the release of Win95 rofl 02:20pm http://www.rpi.net.au/~cammo/win95.html (has lyrics) π LinuxUser/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] 02:30pm ωνω GMOL [gmol@h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca] has joined #tunes Hello all, this is Maneesh, anyone here? hi Maneesh Singh hi! I'm here Yadav actually oh Hi Maneesh Yadav Maneesh Yadav, shaken not stirred :) So what did you think of my idea of the deadline...I realize it must sound imposing, but projects just don't get anywhere unless you try set goals... Uh well I dont know about it cus i dont know about it ultima, you're silly ωνω SignOff LinuxUser: #TUNES (Read error: 3.1415926535 (Excessive pi)) I havent read my mail lately I dont have a damn mailreader =) Tril? What about you? im getting ready to reinstall linux I'm trying to do things as fast as I can. But I disagree with disbanding the project if no progress happens. Neither fare, I, nor Brian at least (and probablymany others) will give up on the project for any reason. 02:50pm I understand your zeal, I share it, but since there aren't many others listening, I was hoping this might serve as a motivation for some real progress, as opposed to discussion, which is interesting, but ever since 5 years ago, fruitless. No one has to give up on the project, but perhaps agreeing to it might serve as motivation to ourselves and others in software development deadlines may be useful to promote progress, but they are always pushed back and should be expected to I respect your opinion, but I really do think motivation is needed...what about the idea of baked/half baked list ? the problem is who are you motivating? Who is going to write these docs? Me. Well it's not just you, Brian has to figure out how tell people about his Arrow system. I have some stuff to give about dstributed OS's.... I should post that I am enrolled in an independent study project for the purpose of writing docs about my object model. And the end of that class is supposed to be in March, which is an EARLIER deadline than July. Excellent. I have been working with a electrical engineering prof at U of T (Angelos Bilas who worked on the SHRIMP project) and intened to use some of my results for TUNES. Regrading OS's on dstributed systems. also, I plan my entire undergraduate degree to be custom designed on tunes. doh! that's embedded well actually I'd have to explain the idea, cause it kinda flows into both why does everyone like embedded so much? why is that so great? the half baked list is tunes, the baked list is tunes-specs. already made them :) Embedded systems are becoming very popular, as electronics continue to find their way into people's lives in different ways. Embedded systems reflect the ability to make portable and minimized cost/efficient systems for this. 03:00pm OS's for these systems are becoming needed to make the programmers lives easier BTW what school are you at? www.wwu.edu There are also interesting issues in performance/resource tradeoffs in embedded systems...what's your major? also, I plan my entire undergraduate degree to be custom designed on tunes. (i just said that) major= tunes You can design your own major...pretty cool. Tril...your getting good at redundancy =) wwu is a collection of colleges..one college is Fairhaven which is the experimental (alternative) education college where I go they use written evaluations instead of grades but you also take classes at the other colleges. Neat....wish I had that...just got a 63% on my cell molecular bio exam....i'm in a biochem honours programme. if you get your major at Fairhaven you appoint a committee and must have classes in multiple departments and weave them together so where do you live? sounds neat. So what sort of ideas do you have for your object model? 03:10pm well the only thing I have written about it publically is in http://www2.tunes.org/list/unios/9812/msg00199.html, go read that and then ask specific questions :) 03:20pm ok, I'm in transit now, be back soon π Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] 03:30pm I really don't see how it's any different a classical OOP language like Smalltalk or C++... except your just changing the names of terms... π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 15 min 0 secs 03:40pm I don't see a question :) ωνω SignOff GMOL: #TUNES (Ping timeout for GMOL[h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca]) 03:50pm ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) ωνω rend [\n@dialin260.computron.net] has joined #tunes hi \n hello anyone heard of that 16 year old who came up with this kickass encryption? 04:20pm no. but I assume you mean http://cachedot.slashdot.org/articles/99/01/13/0931237.shtml ωνω SignOff rend: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rend[dialin260.computron.net]) ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes Fare:!! no Gakuk! hum. fwprc ain't working w/ 2.2.0-pre7 :( 04:30pm did you put these Redirects inside the virtual host sections in httpd.conf? I think that's redundant (they are already outside the virtualhosts, meaning redirect on all hosts) or did I do that oh I see,.....nevermind! Where do I get these Clementine fixes? Core wants me to be able to actually try it is that why you aren't reading anything I say? :P ωνω NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [04:39pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kbair.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES ωνω GMOL [gmol@h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca] has joined #TUNES 04:40pm Sorry about diconnecting Tril, mind telling me how your proposed object model is different than that of C++/Java/Smalltalk beyond naming of terms? GMOL: oh no! Fare: GMOL is Maneesh Yadav C++ is utter crap Java is only crap Smalltalk is a toy GMOL: the main difference is that classes are build intentionally instead of extensionally CLOS is good OCAML is good, too Haskell and Mercury are good, too Fare: he's commenting http://www2.tunes.org/list/unios/9812/msg00199.html I don't understand the difference, mind explaining the terms? GMOL: if you want to compare to existing object systems, don't compare to shitty ones. Compare to Real Ones. Fare: know any intensional object systems?? Actually from what I understood Tril wrote, his model seemed (identical to me) to those languages. and I didn't write much... :) Tril: I'm not sure what "intensional object system" really means. but if it means that you declare interfaces, and fill them, then, Haskell comes close Mercury does about the same, and I think so does OCAML2 hum. BRB with Linux 2.1.130 and a working fwprc (I hope). π Fare/#Tunes is away rebooting extensional definitions are lists of members. They start from nothing, and grow. intensional definitions are properties. They start from anything (unspecific). Then you add to them which causes them to become more limited. the two are completely opposite approaches. In extensional, you build things out of atoms into successively larger structures. in the intensional approach, you narrow down what you mean by adding restrictions. 04:50pm anyone following so far, lost, or...? ωνω malificus [ELPH@res1112521042.res.Lehigh.EDU] has joined #tunes mal long time no see hello, again. hear about the SGI VPC? is that the 320/520 or whatever? yep. i read the specs in slashdot a few weeks ago why, did you get one? :) its tempting. 05:00pm i'm still hoping for a swith to total solid state, however... ;P ehh? remember, i don't like hard disk drives... solid state drives are better, IMO. what exactly is a solid state drive erm, imagine RAM acting as a fixed disk storage device. non-volatile. oh yes that was your plan.. did you make up that name for it or find some existing idea that was like it? although I seem to remember your plaan was to map an actual hard drive into ram... flash memory is expensive. not flash, flash can't endure the repetitive writes... it fails. ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes also some flash memory isn't random access. OTP flash... OTP (One Time Programmable) :p my bad. i was thinking single write for whatever reason. what flash memory isn't random access? the new 32megabyte flash rams are sequential access only Tril: Sorry again, it seems more efficient to define what's there (few things) then what's not (many things), why specify based on restriction? RAM (Random Access Memory) you can't have RAM which isn't random access. :p the new 32megabyte flash rams flash ROMs, however, are usually OTP, if sequentially accessable. it just makes sense to do things that way. GMOL: more efficient, maybe. But not long-term sustainable! all extensional systems die of bloat (their own complexity in the words of Vadim Antonov) malificus: you stupid left-brainers :) i have a couple billion cells, am i dead from bloat yet? ωνω Beholder [beholder@ppp-206.m2-4.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes Well describe to me how you would describe a string in your system? bbbbbbbbbbbbb bee-holder. maybe you want to hold them carefully ;) :) How is everyone? ? oh I get it 05:10pm or an integer if you'd rather GMOL: ok.. a string type is made by multiple subtyping (combining the properties of): collection, sequential(list), cell-type restriction=characters from a given alphabet, and then you would define some special operations for strings such as conc at, equality, etc by slightly modifying (specializing) other generic functions perhaps ones written for lists (since strings are a type of list) DNS is Here!!!! anyone want tunes.org subdomains I'm ready!! hehe.. brb π Beholder/#tunes is afk But how are you defining based on constraint, if you are saying that the super types would eb constraint defined, how would you define a collection based on constraint? s/eb/be/, i see. Collections are pretty much the supertype of everything, so they are kind of an axiom.. they aren't defined, but implementations of them can be defined in terms of whatever HAL you are running on. for instance a generic collection is able to hold any number of any type of object. Implementing that is tough. But subtypes of collection, such as arrays (use the fixed-size constraint, and/or require members to be of the same type), and implement ation becomes easier. Well, how can you use the collections if they are not defined? oh wait add more properties until an implementation is evident (either known already, or can be auto-generated, or easy enough for you to program.) 05:20pm Ok. What's the point of implementing such a general object, when it can be done in so many ways, and often the implementation choices are based on application. (size of objects involved, where they are etc.) Generally there are performance results to be gained by using a particular algorithm or particular way of representing objects. collections are DEFINED in terms of semantics. They encapsulate the concept of state, which can be described by logic statements: "if i put something in the collection, and read it later, it is the same thing I put in" the point is to have a unified typesystem where all types can be derived from the same abstract properties. your implementation choices, or repesentations, are just properties which are added to your objects (by subtyping) until you get the desired result. So are you saying that the system would function as a compiler that would turn "if I put something in the collection..." turns it into an implementation? eventually, yes. But initially, it can just use that definition to verify an external implementation of the type. the logic statements are formal specifications and they are verified.. they are used for hardware too. the state-keeping property of memory and cpu registers, for instance, must be checked before the hardware can be trusted Ok, but doing that requires a lot of computational power, something that not all systems have, not only that how is the system implemented? (who writes the system for that hardware) and with/in what didn't get to that yet I still haven't fully understood my own model HOw is this different than what we have today? FOr instance commitees get together (like the ansi C++ guys) and said this is what a stack does, this is what a hash table does etc.. and those are our axioms and we implement them Textbooks have formal defitions on a lot of things to ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers) ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES but implementation doesn't matter, as long as the system behaves the same. Isn't that the point of platform independence? 05:30pm but there's no way to reuse a hash table on a system-wide scale You misunderstood, you are saying we have some formal definitions written down somewhere (like this is what a collection is etc.) and then the programmer follows the spec to make implement his collection so it works like the spec says. Yes? you can make a hash table library, but using a library is a pain. calling conventions vary, basically you must re-imlpement the same algorithm in each language you want to use it in. tihs system makes a generic hash table type, which can be used in ANY language. it is optimized separately from its semantics. And how is this generic hash table type stored? no.. the formal definitions are within the system, and so is the abstract collection. The programmer takes these properties which are ALREADY available, and combines them to obtain new functionality. π Beholder/#tunes is no longer AFK if a collection isn't defined that's ok it can still be represented by a placeholder until it is. put documentation on the object and people can make subtypes even before it's implemented..to build a structure of a future systme the generic hash table is stored just like all other objecs: as a collection of properties Tril: Is there still room for unios.tunes.org in the DNS? :) π Fare/#Tunes is right back ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) B: ask Fare when he gets "right back" :) ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes But the collection class had to be made by someone at sometime, otherwise how is it's subtyping different than implementing pseudo code from a book? hum WHat do you mean by within the system, how did it get there? nope Fare: Is unios.tunes.org still available? :) you have to fulfill the interface we don't care about inheriting code Fare:what are you replying to inheriting implementation is UTTER CRAP those C++ guys are washing your mind and replacing it with soap Fare: are you talking to me or GMOL GMOL π Tril/#TUNES is confused Tril: gakuk! Beholder: was it, before? Relax, I don't like a whole lot of C++, but it is very practical. Fare: I'd imagine so :) GMOL: practical to racket people and make them stupid Beh: pointing to which machine? Well, how do you go about desiging a fast portable 3d engine under those big "true" OO languages, they just aren't fast enough Fare; don't touch it! I like my DNS file formatted the way it is:) Tril: Sorry that first thing about within the system was directed to you. Tril: are you doing the DNS thingy? I may have a server now. 2mbps fiber optic connection.. Red Hat box. GMOL: C++ is *anything but FAST* 05:40pm and *anything but portable* π Fare/#Tunes is away rebooting with vesafb Faster than what you mentioned, at least I think so GMOL: There is a better solution to C++ somewhere out there, or in the minds of the OS developers :) I agree with Fare C++ is not well sutied for the next generation of computing GMOL: A true OO langauage can be made fast, if it's done right. Agreed, a solution, exists I'm sure, but for now, I I want to write a fast game I C++ is a good choice. Anyway let's drop that subject Tril, what do you mean by within the system, how did it get there? GMOL: You are a game developer :) Lemme guess VC++ DirectX crap? hold on k That's how I started, since then I'm into OS design Say anyone here work in embedded systems? GMOL: Thats the same way I got into designign OS's :) Embedded or games? Games I've never done embedded systems... but I guess console machines qualify :) Cool. I asuume your of democoder self taught type, yes? Which consoles? GMOL: Self taught yes, but I was more in the field of emulation Neato, make any? Worked on my own SNES emulator, but droped it when much much betters ones came out :) I respect emu coders..tuff stuff...zsnes rocks..I have a bud that started out coding shareware out of his basement, now he's a lead programmer at stormfront studios with n64 team, cool guy. Actually I was trying to work on a total rom dissasembler and converter so I could make EXE files out of the ROMS, but the emulators were way ahead 05:50pm gmol. abstract classes are specifications. implementations are separate. You can write one, but you have to prove it meets the criteria. A collection is just a criteria for objects. "Collection objects" are any object which meets the criteria ωνω miguel [miguel@tirania.nuclecu.unam.mx] has joined #TUNES So in order to use a collection, until there is a magical compiler, the programmer has to code it for himself? B: some emulators do dynamic compilation from ROM code to native.. sort of like making an EXE, just not all at once :) Tril: Yep, speeds things up significatly. GMOL: there may be several implementations of a collection, which you can choose from. Or maybe no implementation yet, but you can still use the specification without one. Of course your objects won't work until there is, but that doesn't prevent you from designing them in the system (kind of like writing functions which refer to other functions not defined yet) My idea was to convert ROMS into singular EXE files containing totally x86 code, so they would not have to slow due to any conversion at any time. Not very flexible, but fast as hell But how are those implementations of the collections (any one of them) producded? So, what exactly is tunes abi, object code translation? tril: no idea So, what exactly is tunes? Must go, bye all see you on the mailing list. ωνω SignOff GMOL: #TUNES (Leaving) beholder you may want to look at this url: "http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/richter/people/pilz/oct/index.html, that's the generalization of what you are talking about Tril: Goddamit, why the hell do you ALWAYS have a URL whenever I discuss ANYTHING... :) It's almost scary :) Beholder: my bookmarks file is >100k Thats quite a collection :) miguel: tunes is this project in which we are making an integrated OS mig: The buzzwords are Object Oriented, Multitasking, Distributed and Reflective Buzz words AArrrrggh They mean something very significant, but they are repeated quite often. Not just in Tunes, but in all OS project :) π Fare/#Tunes is back Beh: remove OO from Tunes Fare: WTF are you running on Bespin? you're lagging my mouse pointer to hell I want nothing of OO At about 1:30 everything froze up and the hdd went mad, I coldnt find anyting in the logs 30140 dem 20 19 260 200 144 R N 0 67.4 0.6 12543m rc5des 06:00pm forgot to nice it? Fare: Really? No system wide objects? Fare: You should know better, that only uses idle cycles we'll have "objecst", "foos", or whatever you call them but we won't be "OO" because "OO" ain't mean a thing, but crap 11200 root 0 0 8968 8024 280 D 0 0.7 25.7 1:14 X Beh: please do not ever ever call Tunes "OO". I want nothing to see with people who buzz "OO". Fare: So every system component exists as a singular entity that can be accessed by its methods, but does not do inheretence, or other nasty OO stuff? Fare: I appologize :) I will never say Tunes is OO remove "methods" too unless you have a very precise meaning to give to it Method: A static piece of code that exists within the singularity (object), that, when initated, executes code components communicate according to interfaces. That doesn't say a thing about "methods" or anything. Beh: then, not we don't require static things, and code might not reside "within" anything. and certainly NOT within the objects on which they operate!!! modularity of code and encapsulation of data are quite quite different things there is usually an order of abstration between the two out of swap..... So do the "objects" contain data? ωνω SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.ml.org]) ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes I'm sorry but I can only envision the traditional concept of an object, which is a singularity that contains code and data. Maybe you could elaborate on your idea of an object. Tril: dd if=/dev/zero of=/var/swap.1 bs=16k count=2048 ; sync ; swapon /var/swap.1 Tril: dd if=/dev/zero of=/var/swap.1 bs=16k count=2048 ; sync ; mkswap /var/swap.1 -c 32768 ; swapon /var/swap.1 Tril: dd if=/dev/zero of=/var/swap.1 bs=16k count=2048 ; mkswap /var/swap.1 -c 32768 ; sync ; swapon /var/swap.1 Beh: you've been brainwashed! Must be. What is an object then? it's just an entity. no particular attributes. 06:10pm Ok, where do the instructions come from? from code. a special case of objects, whose abstraction level is >0. i.e. objects whose type is of the form A->B Understood, where does the codified executable instructions reside physically on the system (don't say the disk :) How is the code organized, and where does it execute from? ωνω Signon time : Fri Jan 1 11:46:36 1999 *** Signoff: ^Babi (nef@bespin.ml.org)^B has left IRC [Read error to abi[bespin.ml.org]: EOF from client] *** Signoff: ^BTUNES (tunes@bespin.ml.org)^B has left IRC [Read error to TUNES[bespin.ml.org]: EOF from client] *** Signoff: ^BTril (dem@bespin.ml.org)^B has left IRC [Read error to Tril[bespin.ml.org]: Connection reset by peer] <^BFare^B> considering that the CPU interprets data as code, things like persistence of code become just a special case of persistence of data <^BFare^B> the code is structured as objects with a special encoding that matches the CPU. [^BBeholder^B] How do the objects reside in memory? [^BBeholder^B] I mean, what format? <^BFare^B> mostly the same as other data <^B_QZ^B> any1 know howto setup .htaccess to ban a domain? *** ^BTUNES (tunes@bespin.ml.org)^B has joined channel #TUNES *** ^BTril (dem@bespin.ml.org)^B has joined channel #TUNES <^BFare^B> the memory manager manages code as chunks of bytes, just like other data; Sorry.. Ran out of swap, then killed X and it wouldn't give back my console. had to reboot only the decoding for "unlinking" code is a bit harder than for unlinking data Tril: I see anyone have logs for the time I was gone? at most 5 minutes when I have X+netscape+Xemacs+xterms, it takes me 90MB. well send 'em here <_QZ> i ran outta swap once and then X locked the keyboard and mouse so i couldnt use em :) _QZ yup. now where am I gonna get more swap from.. oh well better buy a new hdd 06:30pm Wow Linux stuff takes up a chunk of memory :) Logs? anyone? >>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested VERSION from #tunes <_QZ> hold on Beholder/#tunes is AFK abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes nm beholder will send me logs hi abi, what's up? Beholder/#tunes is back Ok Tril they are sent gotta go now Later :) Beholder [beholder@ppp-206.m2-4.sub.ican.net] has left #tunes [] IRC log started Thu Jan 14 18:53:32 1999 tost 07:00pm ωνω jiml [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #TUNES Ah... the right server at last. ωνω jiml is now known as jdl hey, it's Jim Little! Hey, it's Tril! :) well, sorry I haven't got to look at Prism yet. 'Sokay. I figured I'd pop by and see what was happening. I think we're gonna get a new hard drive for my server Of course, visiting #TUNES on efnet got me nowhere... :) (Oops) pom pom pom I was thikning maybe like 12 gigs or so.. Fare: Benoit still has some tunes zone running..does he want to be a secondary, too? s/some/the wrong/ Tril: I will contact him morrow he ain't primary or secondary anymore, for now 12 gigs? why not. Maybe for the same price, a 6gig SCSI? ωνω NetSplit: moore.openprojects.net split from king.openprojects.net [07:05pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [moore.openprojects.net] Fare: Did you read my comments on your metaprogramming paper? unless you want to serve gigs of MP3? jdl: where? I'm lagging a lot Fare: I don't have a SCSI controller. SCSI is too expensive Fare: I emailed them to you, several days ago. They were bottom of half of "Prism Conclusions" essay SCSI is too expensive indeed. But it's required if you want high reliability. ωνω Netjoined: moore.openprojects.net king.openprojects.net ωνω miguel [miguel@tirania.nuclecu.unam.mx] has joined #TUNES Fare: you're welcome to buy me a PCI SCSI controller, if you want. I'd rather just stay with IDE, since all my other computers use it reading it Tril: What's the server for? Tril: well, as long as we're not building hyper-reliable stuff, IDe is quite ok jdl: bespin Bespin? Bespin is in bellingham,WA. We'll probably be bespin.nas.com after ml.org goes down jdl: right now, www.tunes.org, email @tunes.org, CVS. 07:10pm Ah. jdl: oh, you had mostly positive feedback. Thanks. Fare: My only criticism would be that the reflection part (I mention it) doesn't make sense to me. it's also my box I use for learning linux admin and giving accounts to my friends and other people in bellingham :) jdl: which part exactly? hey, I said that too, the reflection part is confusing Fare: Checking... jdl: part 5? Tril: part 5? Fare: Should we donate to DHS.ORG, too? Fare: End of English version, last paragraph of part 2... Tril: hum. I dunno. Since you use their service, why not? we will use their service, if it starts. they need donations to start it "Finally, when a metaprogramming framework as described above is able to represent itself, it is said to be reflective." Oops, part 2.2. yeah, reflection needs a longer introduction. a whole paper could be on it (I'm sort of writing one) ωνω SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving) jdl: well, it's just a definition; jdl: what's that unclear about it? jdl: GCC is reflective, since it compiles C. So is ocamlc. But perl is not reflective, since it's not written in perl (well, actually, many parts are perl-generated, just not the core). duh, gone! oh yeah ωνω jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #TUNES jdl: you here? I am now. Fare: did you respond? jdl: what's that unclear about it? jdl: what's that unclear about that definition? jdl: GCC is reflective, since it compiles C. So is ocamlc. But perl is not reflective, since it's not written in perl (well, actually, many parts are perl-generated, just not the core). (someone needs to teach gpm about IRC-style indenting) 07:20pm Okay... so GCC is reflective because it is written in C and it compiles C. Yes/no? yup Define "reflective," please, in a general sense. I would not say GCC is reflective. ok you have a model of a system, and an implemnetation of the model. Assume the model is a model of computing: (such as a prog. lang) if the model itself can be modeled in itself, it is reflective Why? there is a hierarchy of models, and models of models (meta-models), and so on (meta-meta-models, etc.) If one of the models can model itself, then you can contain the system within itself, so to speak, without requiring "external" model systems. jdl: did you read the tunes glossary entry about reflection? Fare: ick!!!!!! A long time ago. ick? Fare: that glossary entry is awful. Others have told me so. Well, time to make it much better, then!!! Fare: I seem to remember disliking the glossary entry too. :) btw, the deadline to submit to Reflection'99 is february 1st -- ick!!! I'm looking for it now though. I don't like it, either! π Tril/#tunes notices searching tunes@tunes.org is not working Where IS the glossary? Ah... found it. Where is reflection'99? and how many tunes members are attending Okay, Tril was right. The glossary entry IS icky. :) Too long, too vague. But I think I found the cause of the confusion. We define "reflective" differently. 07:30pm Dunno Fare You define a system as "reflective" if it is able to read and write itself. π Tril/#tunes remembers: DUH! must run modprobe binfmt_aout for glimpse Considering budgetary restrictions, I might attend it only if I publish! (though it's in France, so maybe restrictions wouldn't apply?) anyway, "publish or perish"! I define a a system as "reflective" if it is able to read and write itself and RUNTIME. Gcc can't do that... hence, it's not reflective by my definition. ... "AT runtime" jdl: why at runtime? If that's so, it's runtime-reflective! jdl but read and write itself in what ways? it needn't be (tho that's better, of course) What's so particular about "foo"-time? jdl are you talking about just patching memory when it suits the system or actually generated, compiling, and patching in more optimal code linux recompiles linux, saves stuff, reboots, restores stuff oolt! Fare: Yes, is it thus reflective? ultima: I suppose just patching memory would satisfy the definition... ult: sure, Linux is reflective jdl: I wrote a message proposing some terms for reflection, that clarifies this argument.. I'm trying to find it now. ult: did you read my recent paper? ...but I would think "read and write whilst UNDERSTANDING what is being read and written. defining reflection is http://tunes.org/list/tunes/9810/msg00179.html Anyway, any programming language, the source code of which is stored in a file, can be read and modified by a program. I think everyone agreed to that.. Fare said it was ok it should go on a main page (or in that glossary, for now, at least) So Perl can read and write its sources, even though they are in C. jdl: ick! :) And a sufficiently sophisticated Perl program could even understand them. So why isn't Perl reflective? :) Answer: I don't think languages are reflective. Only systems are. Tril: looking at msg00179 jdl: what if your language encompasses the entire system, like ours will? Define "encompasses the entire system" what if the language is all you have Fare: your recent paper? Fare: THe one on calculus? Tril: Be more specific jdl: Well, linux is fully reflective then jdl: Imagine a system that regularly downloads kernel patches, applies them, rebuilsd the kernel, and reboots the author of smalltalk said, "An OS is everything that couldn't fit in the language. There shouldn't be one." or someting of the sort. ultima: my point was that I don't like that definition of reflective. :) jdl: Or something that automatically updates the system with distro patches jdl: Yes. Reflective is too general a term Tril: Bahahahahh Tril: Thats good =) jdl: understand now? ult: the one in ~fare/articles/ll99/index.en.html Tril: I understand the reference... that was Sphere's intention at one point too But then I started thinking I could never specify a single language sophisticated enough to meet everybody's needs. Fare: Is it the one that had that rediscovered algorithm thingy? Thus was born Prism. Tril: However... Tril: ... never mind. I've lost the thread of the conversation. What were we talking about? :) jdl: LISP is incredible in that respect. The BNF is *tiny* and thus you are not limited at all as far as syntax goes jdl: Anything lisp does not do can be added either as a defun or as a subroutine in the library 07:40pm ultima: I agree. I don't know much about LISP... (never used it) jdl: I'm arguing against your statement "languages cannot be reflective, only systems can." I agree about current languages. But I want to make a language that IS the entire system. the quote from smalltalk was supposed to help.. jdl: Theres not much *to* know...a few builtins like defun for creating functions, atoms, lists, s-expressions, thats about it Tril well But it seems to me to be a syntax parse tree metamodel, or meta-metamodel... not expressive enough. jdl: you're right... no single language. Tril: Why not just make the system a message-based kernel server, thus at the low level you could implement it as a language But a REFLECTIVE language is not a single language! Heh C is reflective GCC is written in C GCC can recompile itself ωνω FeeDBacK [...@spc-isp-ktc-uas-06-28.sprint.ca] has joined #TUNES ωνω FeeDBacK [...@spc-isp-ktc-uas-06-28.sprint.ca] has left #TUNES [] Tril: What does it mean for a language to BE the system? yes! You can now create accounts and login to them, in my projects system :) jdl: 1. the language is the same as the user interface. 2. language operations are NOT distinguished from library calls, program executions, or system calls. They are all treated the same, since they are semantically equivalent. Tril no! NO NO NO! Yer thinking cmucl/mach there ultima: what's yer objection, let me guess, efficiency? Tril: Okay, I understand. That was goal for Prism, too. Now... Tril: Ever used cmucl/mach? Tril: Thats not an operating system. Thats a bootable interpreter/compiler =) lisp isnt a programming language, its an interpreted core =) ultima, so? That's the best kind of OS. ultima: definition of "OS" is fuzzy at best :) it does everything an OS does, only better Oops... not Prism, Sphere OS. Tril: uh, no Language = OS was goal for Sphere. Tril: Explain to me how being able to boot a lisp interpreter makes my OS any better jdl: sounds like you gave up :) Can we say 'ROM BASIC' anyone? Sphere OS has been abandoned. Here's why: Sure. IBM ROM BASIC was technically an OS, but only weirdos use it nowadays (And yes, IBM still puts it in their computers) ultima: but if it was a better language, what would be your objection? Premise: The earlier in the development process you make an error, the worse the consequences. Premise: There are some aspects of a system which must be unchangable. jdl: Premise 2 is junk :) i dont quite understand premise 1 Tril: Hmm... you're right. Tril: Premise 1 is standard software engineering theory. making everything changeable is the idea behind a reflective system. Tril question -- changeable when? run time, compile time, or boot time? 07:50pm jdl: for definition of "OS", see my WhyNewOS article Anyway, Sphere OS was abandoned because at its core it was an object-oriented system. ultima: http://tunes.org/list/unios/9901/msg00045.html ult: being a *bad* OS doesn't mean you're not an OS. I started questioning my choice of an object-oriented core, oops wrong window "OO" is utter because that would be the one thing about the system which was unchangable. Fare is utter Fare: Dogma. OO has its place, as does everything else. jdl: OO is the ban-word :) But our core is not Buzz-word OO, but OO done right. jdl: *OO* is dogma OO is very useful for some things OO is 100% content-free buzzword ultima: Precisely. ultima: define OO (try to, in your head, not in the channel) Fare: Then you don't understand OO. it ain't mean anything useful. Tril: Hahaha What Fare is trying to say is that the definition of OO varies so much that it is meaningless. jdl: there is nothing to understand in OO Tril: By my definition, its something which revolves around object control rather than linear state control It doesn't mean anything in particular. when you understand something, you see that it ain't OO after all. ultima: no, that's just actor and/or concurrent programming. ultima: did you read about Compile time is any-time yet (last url I posted)? and OO is certainly NOT that. Tril no Fare, then what is it? besides, most "OO" systems are sequential --> linear state control! Fare: OOP and OOAD are well suited to modeling and simulating real-world environments. ...Although I prefer the actor model. :) OO is *crap*, if you want the word it's complete brainwash Sphere was to be concurrent OO. ...i.e., Actor. But like I said, I abandoned it because I realized that OO was not the ideal tool for all tasks. OOP and OOAD are stuff made by greedy ignorants to make money out of people even more ignorant. quoting myself: "everything is an expression and the compiler is just a function" they ain't suited to model *anything* or to simulate *anything* not anymore than COBOL or any other crappy "paradigm" Fare: You are using high-emotion, low-content words and not backing up your statements. In my book this is dogma, not reasonable discussion. Moving on... jdl: you haven't backed anything either Fare: OO is supposed to be the paragon of abstraction re-use. jdl: Fare is a frencher. He cant say anything logically jdl: read a bit of comp.lang.functional OO is the paragon of ignorance-reuse Since I didn't want to be bound to a particular language paradigm... I came up with Prism, which allows any language paradigm to be defined. WELL Now my question for you is... UltOS uses SERVER ORIENTED programming =) anything that one feels but doesn't bother to try to understand, one calls "an object". That's OO. What essential assumptions about TUNES are you making that can't be changed? Then you grow a mess of a semantically crappy system around stupid assumptions that you never dare question. That's OO. Fare: I am no longer discussing OO, nor do I care to. jdl: assumptions: 1. the assumptions will change. 2. If the system doesn't make it easy to change the assumptions, it will not last long. 3. use reflective system, so all assumptions can be changed, thus obtaining an evolvable (lasting) system.--because it does not have a static form Tril: So how do you bootstrap it? There has to be some INITIAL assumptions, at least. jdl: the assumptions are that the computer is as much part of the development system as the human 08:00pm jdl: the initial assumptions are the computer, and existing languages (asm, FORTH, LISP) in my model, I am assuming that people think by placing things in categories, that there is a hierarchy of detail, that all assumptions must be able to be made explicit, although maybe not at the same time... Tril: Okay, so an essential assumption you are making is that people like to think hierarchically. Can this be changed? jdl: What other way is there to think? I don't know -- I'm not a psychologist. if you know of one, let me know However, in PISE, I define this as "system abstraction." I also define "domain abstraction," which means thinking about the information in an entirely new way. For example... You could think of the category of winged things and put birds and planes in it. Or you could use a different domain abstraction and categorize by species. Okay, perhaps that was a bad example. jdl: don't confusion order (=information) with order (=hierarchy) the latter is only a tiny subset of the former! Fare: I don't know what you mean by "don't confuse..." 2 different meanings of the same word sometimes, there are hierarchies indeed, and we may rejoice, because the case is (relatively) simple. I'm still confused. ;) I didn't use the word "order" But life is not that simple! you used the word hierarchy an order in mathematics (i.e. poset) is a certain kind of relation.(antisymmetric and transitive) .. the other meaning is order vs. disorder (i.e. chaos) tril did at first, actually which has to do with entropy and information theory, which I am not , uh, expert in. fare, btw, did binEng ask you about the glossary for Entropy? (see logs 1999.0101 search bineng and entropy to find our conversation) Tril: In addition to hierarchy we also have non-hierarchical relationships. For example, a family tree could be considered a hierarchy. But friendship is a relationship between family trees. I.e., not necessarily a hierarchical relationship. jdl: so a person is in more than one hierarchy. So that's a case where hierarchy doesn't necessarily work. So you're saying that there would be a hierarchy of friendships? jdl: it's not a hierarchy, and I agree, and I didn't mean to imply my model rqeuires a hierarchy, because it doesn't. ko? Oh. I thought you said you were making the assumption that everything was organized in a hierarchy. 08:10pm no, I don't assume that Tril: not yet my goal is (As I believe YOU stated for me) to achieve the most expressible language possible- to use the exact right domain abstraction for the problem at hand. Tril: I've just received my home copy of the Kolmogorov book by Li&Vitanyi from Amazon! doing so requires the model system to be structured in any possible configuration. hierarchically is only one configuration Okay remove the word model from that line err, no, I maen remove the word system!!! gotta go Same thing, almost :) Bye π Fare/#Tunes is away (sleep) haha 7AM in france Tril: What defines the possible configurations? I don't understand the question The model may be structured in any possible configuration... ...what is "possible" and what is "impossible?" How are configurations defined? Who defines them? Within what constraints? (I'm not trying to attack you, BTW, just trying to understand.) well... you can model any structure you want using N dimensions (my turn, or are you still typing?) uh.. I'm not sure where to go 'sokay. I think I kind of lost track of the point of all this too. in my system a piece of information is fully defined by a set of properties each property is a "dimension" and the information has a particular value within that dimension 08:20pm OK you can type now Thanks :) Let me see if I understand... Your system defines an N-dimensional space... Where a particular dimension fully defines the possible values of one attribute... And a single piece of information is defined by locating it within that space. (your turn) the system is integrated because N is the total number of attributes possible for ANY object That's what I thought. anytime you create a new attribute, you must somehow decide which objects have it, and which don't, out of ALL objects Okay but that is not so hard, because usually attributes are defined in terms of other attributes. That would be good. :) ... So you could define some automatic system which would automatically assign the new attribute for you. ... actually the concept of a type system defines what attributes can even apply to which information And only when you create some new dimension that is completely orthogonal in concept to the others do you ... have to define it manually for all objects. Interesting... an attribute is a predicate: it has a domain, which is the set of objects for which it is meaningful to ask whether the object "has" the property (see Russell's Simple Theory of Types) I like it. I didn't understand your last statement. I'm not a mathemetician. (Or even a computer scientist.) what I said is that not all objects can have any attribute. Oh, you already said that. ok good But I do have one BIG question... one you may not be able to answer at this time... if so, I understand. : How are dimensions defined? that's what whatshisname was asking.. and fare chewed him out for it GMOL It's a question which must be answered before you can define an N-Space. :) no, I can answer it after I define the N-space :) I already defined an N-space Mentally or as a computer model? 08:30pm a dimension/property/attribute/supertype/predicate is function. the argument type is the set of all objects which MIGHT have the property. The return value is true or false. Asking whether the property is true for an object wihch isnt in the type is a domain error (exception) and is not seen by the function. s/function/a function/ Just a clarification: In this model, a dimension is binary (true/false?) Either way, how are functions defined? As C functions? yes, globally they are binary. but you can represent anything as a predicate by a set of relations functions are a special case of relations (see Prolog) Let me see if I understand: (note how quickly the system is visibly reflective) Hmm.. no I don't understand. What is a relation? a mathematical relation is a set of tuples. you know what an ordered pair is? ordered pairs are 2-tuples. Okay: 1) A dimension is a function. ultima is an n-tuple 2) A function is a special case of relations. 3) A relation is a set of tuples. 4) Tuples of what? tuples of dimensions, of course That's what I thought. tuples of ULTIMAS can you HANDLE IT?>? π Tril/#tunes phears the clones A dimension is a ... is a dimension. :) So how do you plan on breaking the circularily? circularity circularity will appear like it is always intact in the working system through a complex system of gears and pulleys to trick the user In order to bootstrap the system, you will have to define an initial set of dimensions. That's fine. whereas in reality the circularity can be broken at any point, then replaced. But what will that initial set be? 08:40pm guys whatever is necessary to define functions, relations, tuples, and predicates... basically, an implementation of mathematics! :) I'm sorry and logic but you guys are so full of shit its not even funny =) ultima: thanks. I suspect you have a little work left to do. :) I thought this was an OS, Not a mathematics masters thesis =) jdl: are you just pretending to understand what I'm saying, or are you interpreting it on as abstract a level as I am intending it? ultima: same difference :) ultima: you should see the Arrow discussions. Tril: I don't know if I see what you see, but what I see makes sense to me. gotta go jdl: Dear god no. Thank god I have a scorefile =) π Tril/#TUNES is away: (AFK) [BX-MsgLog Off] :) It's late... see ya ultima ωνω SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving) hahahahahaha my god tril, that was...god I dont know what it was why cant u say ur just gonna store the configuration information in a dynamic array =) 08:50pm ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ultima[user-37kbair.dialup.mindspring.com]) <_QZ> wow SMP isnt that hard to setup 09:30pm !spice_huh:*! All users on irc.linux.org.au (jordan.openprojects.net) I need to re-ip the machine NOW - The machine will only be down for moments, and the DNS has been updated - for those of you that have caching DNS, the new IP is 203.62.135.40 !spice_huh:*! IP change in 5 minutes !netgod:*! fear !Hyrlik:*! uh oh !Hyrlik:*! hey netgod, I have a question for you !Hyrlik:*! Whats the latest and greatest version of debian? !netgod:*! "Potato" :-) !Hyrlik:*! How do I get it? :) !Teknix:*! isn't it Potatoe? ;) !spice_huh:*! point apt-get at "unstable" !netgod:*! if wallops had actions, i'd bop u !Hyrlik:*! why? !spice_huh:*! Here goes............ !Hyrlik:*! wait wait you didn't say the prayer!Q!! !netgod:*! whoop ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250086.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes <_QZ> tcn: i had a question for u shoot <_QZ> well when i remember i will ask :) I wrote a RDF linker for my OS <_QZ> i wrote smp for brix <_QZ> s/wrote/added/ yeah, so I hear.. wasn't too hard I guess.. <_QZ> just need to find an smp machine now to test it :) Hmm.. Try #smp 10:00pm <_QZ> uhh i wanna be the one running it :) Screw SMP, DC is better <_QZ> ya whatever I wonder if that XCOM format is really gonna work for my system.. looks too unixy Reminds me of XCOM-UFO defense :) <_QZ> well brix dont need formats however you layout your objects in memory 10:10pm <_QZ> eh? 10:20pm Brix just uses its own format Sometime we gotta come up with a "Tunes object format" that's interchangable between all our Tunes-like OS's <_QZ> did u see my format on the bi page? <_QZ> code pointer, 3 bytes for version, long name of action, action code <_QZ> my actions are basically raw function code <_QZ> simplicity <_QZ> eveerything else about the action is integrated into a searchable database when the action is compiled <_QZ> and the version and name will probably be removed later Do you have link tables? <_QZ> for what? Well, data references on the x86 are relative to the segment base.. so if you want to be able to put the code anywhere in memory, what do you do? 10:30pm <_QZ> excuse me??? the x86 has relative code Doesn't that limit what addressing modes you can use, though? <_QZ> i think u need to go read the brix page <_QZ> brix loads an action into memory, brix sets up the thread state pointing eip to the base of the action, brix schedules that thread to get run... Ok, say you have an instruction: MOV eax, [some_variable] <_QZ> oh u said data above <_QZ> A) the action is passed a pointer so it knows its base <_QZ> B) NOOOO data should be inside an action <_QZ> C) any data the action needs it opens as objects and is given the base pointer to it So it all goes through the kernel? <_QZ> tcn: yer bashing the x86 for problems that arent problems Yeah, ARM, MIPS, etc, prolly don't have relative data addressing either <_QZ> relative to what to IP <_QZ> that means yer putting data in the code So? So are you saying that the system would function as a compiler that would turn "if I put something in the collection..." turns it into an implementation? hahaha abi just pulled that one outta her ass <_QZ> data shouldnt be in the code <_QZ> data should be in its own little object that the user can edit 10:40pm fucking A! This waasennaar treaty sucks qz: Sometimes data is part of the code <_QZ> hehe some chick shot her way into a tv news station today near me oh yeah, I heard about that.. <_QZ> really? it was on the news. Then our TV blew up.. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzapp! <_QZ> ok <_QZ> she shot some news guy dead <_QZ> funny how dumb ppl are -^lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. Quick move of tolkien and king <_QZ> she didnt get far inside the building <_QZ> if i wanted to shoot my way into a tv building i would be successful It sounded like she didn't know how to shoot.. just lightly wounded a few people <_QZ> ya Well a 9's a pussy gun anyway <_QZ> id go in there with my paitnball gun What you need is a .44 magnum <_QZ> 200 marbles in the hopper, gun at 400fps haha If I remember right, 9mm's only go 600-900fps.. not much powder in them.. <_QZ> i can guarentee that i would be on world news <_QZ> and paintball would become even more popular yeah, killed 10 people with a paintball gun Everyone would start using marbles The Bill Clinton would put a 7-day waiting period on marbles s/The/Then/ <_QZ> hahahah "instant" background checks <_QZ> gang bangers will start using paintball guns and marbles yeah, those paintball guns are full automatic <_QZ> eh? right? <_QZ> no <_QZ> full auto is not legal on any field Well I got shot with one once :) <_QZ> the angel uses a replaceable computer board <_QZ> and u can get a board that has full auto <_QZ> but all other guns are semi <_QZ> my gun can shoot upto 9 balls /sec This was like 5 years ago.. only time I ever played. <_QZ> if i can pull my finger 9 times a second 10:50pm <_QZ> the automagRT can do 26/sec hehe.. <_QZ> u can get a double trigger that shoots a ball pulling back and another releasing the trigger So what's a good but relatively cheap gun? <_QZ> so it will shoot 2 balls per pull <_QZ> tippmann model 98 is $170 <_QZ> all tippmanns are good quality and inexpensive <_QZ> the tippmann sl68II is a pump gun and costs around $105 and who makes shitty ones I want to avoid? <_QZ> brass eagle <_QZ> they are the packard bell of paintball guns <_QZ> :) <_QZ> spyder is crap <_QZ> autocockers are the #1 prefered gun Yeah, cause we were gonna get a few pretty soon.. don't wanna get crap.. <_QZ> but they are hard to use and maintain <_QZ> but shoot damn good if u know howto use em what's the difference between an autococker and a regular semi-auto? <_QZ> u have to know howto pull the trigger or u chop every ball in half hahah <_QZ> autococker is the brand name <_QZ> made by Worr Games <_QZ> automag is made by AGD <_QZ> automag is a perfect gun <_QZ> very few pieces, requires no maintenence, shoots fast, shoots good <_QZ> angel is top of the line We'll have to get an autococker, just cause it sounds interesting ;) <_QZ> $900-2000 <_QZ> i have a minimag <_QZ> same as automag but it has a longer body with kewl holes to make it look nicer and add $100 more to the price :) what's the automag cost? <_QZ> $330 <_QZ> minimag is $430 autococker? hmmm... autococker is the brand name <_QZ> but those are base prices <_QZ> thats like buying a computer without a hard drive, memory, monitor <_QZ> then u need an air supply, barrel, and hopper <_QZ> u have nitro or co2 as an air supply <_QZ> co2 runs like $20-40 <_QZ> nitro runs $150-500 11:00pm heh, I heard they had pump-guns.. that would suck :) nitrogen or NO2? <_QZ> hoppers ranges from the $6 piece of sh*t that comes with them upto $70 state of the art <_QZ> N2 of CO2 <_QZ> n2 = nitro ok <_QZ> and barrels range from $30-100+ <_QZ> oh and then u gotta upgrade all the parts inside the gun N2 compresses better? How long do N2 and CO2 last canisters last, anyway? <_QZ> i upgraded my bolt and air valve <_QZ> depends on the gun <_QZ> some guns use more air per shot <_QZ> some use less oh yeah, fps <_QZ> no can't forget face masks either <_QZ> i have a 3000psi 47ci nitro tank and get about 400-500 shots <_QZ> oh ya, buy a jt flex7 (top of the line) <_QZ> $63 <_QZ> the jt spectra thermals are ok $50 <_QZ> the flex7 is a spectra thermals, but it has wetex foam and a flexible mouth area <_QZ> u can put yer gun upto yer chin and it flexs <_QZ> and the wetex foam is hooked on with velcro so when it gets wet u can change it with new dry foam between games <_QZ> its the foam around yer eyes <_QZ> but i wouldnt buy an autococker unless u have played alot and know lots of ppl that own autocockers <_QZ> they have a million small parts that break easily oh <_QZ> u have to tweak those stupid things screw that <_QZ> my minimag has the same level of performance as the autococker but requires no brains to use I had shit that breaks easy s/had/hate/ :) <_QZ> they are also bulky guns hehe, the one time I played, I just used the cheap pump-action guns they had at this place.. nailed lotsa people with it :) π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 2 hrs 26 min 57 secs I shot some guy in the butt from 30 yards, holding it like a pistol :) 11:10pm <_QZ> http://www.ircpaintball.org/MOG/pics.htm <_QZ> goto the stock minimag pic ωνω GMOL [gmol@h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca] has joined #tunes My goodness everybody is still here??? allright QZ Anybody know what's going on with Brian? He said he would discuss his Arrow stuff with me, but I haven't heard from him. Has anyone else? Hey Tril, I refined my object system a bit, after reading about yours GMOL: me neither Tril I can you explain to me how constraint definitions of objects are good? tril: my objects can be Numbers, Letters/Strings, Functions (which contain code + subobjects), and Clones of other objects >>> GMOL [gmol@h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca] requested FINGER from TUNES >>> GMOL [gmol@h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca] requested USERINFO from TUNES oh hi guys I'm reading the log about paintball <_QZ> hehe tcn: you mean the one discussion I had with jdl?? tril: The one on the unios list.. I saw it in the log, thought I'd check it out.. <_QZ> tcn: my objects can be any data, actions are also objects since they hold data that the cpu uses to do shit tril: haven't gotten to jdl yet GMOL: is yer email 'Maneesh Yadav' ? That's the address I see cc:'d on Brian's letters Oh..my email is 97yadavm@scar.utoronto.ca (it's in the Reply To field) crap tcn: Oh, the short one "tril's typesystem", GMOL said that was the same as C++ I have to use that address for pop3 access GMOL: is cj@utpulse.com yours, or somebody else's? tril: Am I on Brain's CC list? also, could you forward the message(s) I missed? Housemates...I'll figure it out...damn..I have gotten rep from other emails.. tril: Ditto pour moi tcn: you're on his list from now on, yeah. I'll send u the other ones. OK, gmol. 11:20pm I don't know if you caught that last thing, but can you explain how your constraint deinition of objects are better that current ones? BTW My name is Maneesh...it's just my bud's email CJ... well it's like making everything high-level to begin with stuff starts out abstract, then is translated to machine to implement it. Instea of building stuff out of low-level, it's built from high-level if you build out of low-level pieces, you are going to have to rewrite your code every time and eventually it will get ugly and bloated. starting with abstract properties you can design programs with "aspects" separated out from the beginning (I assume everyone has at least heard of Aspect-oriented programming.) This I agree with. Yes I have heard about Aspect programming, but I am fuzzy, mind elabing? me too it's also closely related to microsoft's intensional programming So that's what intensional is. I don't like it ;) here is my idea of it (not an expert just read the first half of one paper on it until I got the idea) AOP: shoot. when you design a program you have an algorithm. That's pure functional, in other words it maps the problem directly, the way you think about it. Then to make it run fast, you make some drastic transformations in the code. in C you do some of these yourself, and more are done by the compiler. in my idea of AOP the programmer gets to specify some code transformations himeslf while coding it but the optimziations are separate from the pure algorithm ok, that could be wrong by a lot hmm.. something like this: the BASIC idea of aop is there are some changes to code that take place THROUGHOUT the code. If you made them yourself, the code would become unrecognizable and hard to maintain. But if you write the aspects in a separate function, you can maintain the program and its aspects separately. Then when you compile the "aspect weaver" puts them all together nevermind :) 11:30pm Fare says aspects are just one example of Metaprogramming So AOP is like pure functional programming, with "annotations" or "hints" to the compiler? so basically the idea was already going into tunes from the beginning. just a sec guys I'm talking to my sis over fone..keep going just don't expect me to respond :) sort of. There's an "aspect language" that makes it easy to describe global transformations to your code. And you can customize it for the code AT HAND. offhand, anyone know of a language like LISP, without the parenthesis? (dylan?) nobody is every expected to respond on IRC :) probably ML, haskell, mercury, ... I think one of the schemes has a customizable syntax where you can get rid of parenthesis. ask Fare about it any language based on lambda calculus = lisp without parenthesis any functional lang is worth looking at can someone explain lambda calc briefly (still talking) maybe It's about abstracting out functions.. sort of an algebra of functions, instead of variables. (and I guess a variable or a constant IS a function) sure gmol you have an expression and some symbols in it then you can create a lambda out of it lambda(X) ..later you apply the lambda expression to some other lambda expression and the argument is substituted for X in the first one. tcn: everything is a lambda expression if it's on the left side it's the function, on the right it's an argument Is it something I'd see in regular calculus? it's just search and replace, with scoping! no lx.[sin x] = sin sin = lx.[x - 1/6x^3 + 1/120x^5 - ...] just an example.. <_QZ> nite later QZ ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (Read error to _QZ[p0wer.qzx.com]: Connection reset by peer) whu? 11:40pm Instead of saying "sin(x) = (power series)" you say "sin = lx.[power series]" So you're not talking about the sine of anything, just "sine".. I guess it's one of those things you have to get a feel for.. well you can't just use ... you'd need to find a lambda expression that evaluated to the whole thing :) you know it as well as I do.. hehe I'm getting ready to write another interpreter/compiler, something other than Forth :) are you going to stick Forth on top of clementine? asdf 11:50pm Yeah, I just need to polish up Forth And figure out how to interface it with clementine.. I hope it's not too hard I figured out RDF today, wrote a linker for my OS :) Now I can make it modular.. RDF? RDF is crappy though RDF is nasm's experimental ouput format.. Relocatable Dynamic Object Format As for XCOM, I'm still looking to see if it fits with my goals. It has some nice ideas, though. [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0115 IRC log ended Fri Jan 15 00:00:01 1999