IRC log started Thu Jan 7 00:00:02 1999 שםש SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0107 שםש Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.ml.org] by varley.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.ml.org]) שםש Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success שםש Use /Server to connect to a server שםש Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] שםש Your nick [TUNES] is owned by tunes@bespin.ml.org שםש BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about שםש Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES_ (from crichton.openprojects.net) שםש Your host is crichton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie (from crichton.openprojects.net) שםש This server was cobbled together Sat May 9 1998 at 12 25:56 EDT(from crichton.openprojects.net) שםש crichton.openprojects.net u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie dioswkfcg biklmnopstv שםש [local users on irc(5)] 3% שםש [global users on irc(53)] 30% שםש [invisible users on irc(126)] 70% שםש [ircops on irc(13)] 7% שםש [total users on irc(179)] שםש [unknown connections(0)] שםש [total servers on irc(27)] (avg. 6 users per server) שםש [total channels created(56)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !crichton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 12 (11 clients) שםש Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES_ שםש TUNES_ [tunes@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes שםש Topic for #TUNES: TUNES project . Site layout meeting on Friday, 23:00 GMT -binEng. Its good to be a tunes member! שםש topic set by Tril [Tue Jan 5 18:09:28 1999] שםש [Users(#TUNES:3)] [ TUNES_ ] [ Fare ] [ TUNES ] שםש Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998 שםש BitchX: Join to #tunes was synced in 8.412 secs!! שםש NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [02:41am] שםש BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] שםש Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net שםש Fare [rideaufr@137.194.160.71] has joined #TUNES שםש binEng [bineng@dialup47-2-41.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes שםש smkl [smkl@purple.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes HELP! wut? umm wait שםש SignOff smkl: #TUNES (changing servers) 09:30am שםש smkl [smkl@purple.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes you know any efnet servers that allow .com non identd installed? I don't understand what u're talking about blah :) שםש SignOff smkl: #TUNES (changing servers) bbl שםש SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) 09:40am !NickServ:*! drow used GETPASS on wastrel שםש binEng [bineng@dialup148-3-11.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes שםש _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes <_QZ> Fare: u here? שםש hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes 11:10am Hum bug נ Fare/#Tunes is back for a short time yes? שםש binEng has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: sensation! www.tunes.org works! Web site meeting Friday 23:00 GMT gotta go שםש SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) 11:20am שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250091.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hoy tcn hey hi what's up bineng? שםש abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes I'm writing down a paper on the new site layout. damnit, i took abi for an hour or 2 and when i reloaded her i forgot u hav her join #tunes ...whcih means? nothing really, just that she hasnt been in here נ hcf/#tunes runs off to change the cfg file hey, I found a strange link to TUNES: http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/rideau/Tunes/ binEng: just means its an old link 11:30am still works, at least Yeah.. that's where I found out about Tunes.. it as in the Assembly-HOWTO Hey, I decided to write a short history of Tunes.. it might give the project some direction :) I found it in comp.lang.forth FAQ :) tcn, good idea I've seen ideas in Tunes straight out of the old work at MIT before I was even born.. And I was looking at the old messages in tunes-lll yesterday, and they were talking about ITS!!! huh i found tunes via the review pages being linked to from everywhere i went ITS is Incompatible Timesharing System, written at MIT around 1970.. "Incompatible" :) CTSS is Compatible Time-Sharing System, a crappy OS written at MIT in the 1960's. ITS mocks CTSS. ic notice how I'm brainwashing abi :) heh abi: CTSS? CTSS is Compatible Time-Sharing System, a crappy OS written at MIT in the 1960's. ITS mocks CTSS. tcn: she has a scratch brain area for stuff from u so doesnt infect the main brain ;) s/so/so it/ :) <_QZ> hahah <_QZ> what is ITS and CTSS? abi, ITS? rumour has it ITS is Incompatible Timesharing System, written at MIT around 1970 <_QZ> bummer abi isnt that smart hehe.. I did a search for ITS and I found something about it in the Unix-Hater's Handbook at research.microsoft.com.. but the file is no longer there :( 11:40am hahahha.. Microsoft's search engine crashed שםש SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.ml.org]) נ binEng/#tunes sees abi crumble and die שםש SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[escher.sdi.agate.net]) נ binEng/#tunes sees hcf go after him (her?) שםש NetSplit: asimov.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [11:44am] שםש BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [asimov.openprojects.net] נ binEng/#tunes sees the whole internet fail, node after node... bineng, I can't make it tomorrow :( !sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT asimov.openprojects.net 8005 from netgod I though 2300 GMT was 4 am here, but I was going the wrong way :) That's 7 pm here, and I won't be around שםש Netjoined: asimov.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net שםש _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES Where are you? נ tcn/#tunes saw Altavista fail a minute ago I'm in New York the state, not the city is there a difference? <_QZ> u guys want some joke emails? Yeah, there's forests and stuff here. But socially this town is dead. sure QZ <_QZ> whats yer addy's שםש hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes oh, they're that big? nevermind I have enough bs in my mailbox.. hehe <_QZ> no they are small 11:50am http://members.xoom.com/unios/Tunes.txt <-- Suggested site layout <_QZ> binEng: come on man, put that in html :) damn netscape doesn't wrap long lines <_QZ> i am not gonna scroll to read it OK OK I WILL DO IT I just saved it and read it w/ 'less' oh yeah QZ doesn't have linux ok, fine then. Sorry QZ :) <_QZ> i am not gonna save it, like tcn, and use less <_QZ> :) QZ: It's only for members anyway ;) Just wrap the lines, bineng <_QZ> no just change the .txt to .html <_QZ> i am a member really?? <_QZ> sorta <_QZ> :) Yeah, QZ is the honorary member.. hmm, did they ever add "And then there's QZ.." to the member list? don't think so <_QZ> yes <_QZ> tril put it at the bottom I don't see it שםש qz [qz@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes see שםש qz [qz@bespin.ml.org] has left #tunes [] <_QZ> http://www.allos.org/ http://members.xoom.com/unios/Tunessite.html what's that, list of all OS's? binEng: u should of numbered ur suggestions bineng: same thing as tunes.txt? <_QZ> binEng: ya could u number them please? :) binEng: or use

tcn: yes QZ: NO 12:00pm hcf: NO ;) oh well, no responses from me on em then :P hmpf <_QZ> * A glossary, divided into one page per word. Note: All entries need to be reconsidered and many need <_QZ> simplifying. <_QZ> fare likes single LARGE pages I'm working on that QZ hcf: like if I *wanted* response from you :) <_QZ> i already tried to get them to break stuff up afaik, we decided to do both large and separate <_QZ> ofcourse everything on the tunes pages use to exist on a single page so i guess i was somewhat successful scripts for handling the glossary are pretty much done.. now to actually write new entries Let's just write the important ones, to hell with stuff like Communism.. heh bineng: You're not suggesting we use frames, are you? tcn: since each word is on an own page, ppl will never know about Communism :) tcn, not as far as I know bineng: There's an index there is? damn :) bineng: Besides, it's a waste of time rewriting all those entries oh well Ok, so now I gotta actually finish the job and put it online. too much pressure :) שםש binEng2 [bineng@dialup159-1-28.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes <-- Was disconnected... as you have prolly already guessed :P שםש SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup148-3-11.swipnet.se]) <_QZ> The Top 9 Surprises Regarding the Euro <_QZ> 5> Proclaimed by Bill Gates as "much softer than the dollar for <_QZ> use when wiping." 12:10pm http://members.xoom.com/unios/tunessite.html <-- Happy now? HUH?! שםש binEng2 is now known as binEng Hey, we need a list of jobs to be done.. What kind of jobs? <_QZ> any1 happen to know a mirror to ftp.enlightenment.org? Anything.. Oh, we have that.. TODO list under Wiki tcn: what r the possible 'views' of the glossary? all-as-html, all-as-text, and what? hcf: Individual entries (with an index page), also with a search scratch search.. it's unnecessary abi, KUT? rite, ppl can just dl the all-as-text and grep it שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: read and comment ppl, http://members.xoom.com/unios/tunessite.html >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250091.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 915740414 from #tunes 12:20pm binEng: item 17 was requested? yes... wished at least i17 reminds me of having a dead fetus hanging of the side of one's head uhh... fun. I think. 17? what item 17? tcn: see the topic url, last item binEng: u wished it? binEng: s/u/who/ hcf: not me. Can't remember who did. I only see 16 items. What's 17? /oldsite/? binEng: u mite be confused, i mentioned /oldsite/ but said not to do it tcn: bingo נ binEng/#tunes _is_ confused binEng: grep the irclogs for oldsite, u'l see bineng: Keep the old site, but don't link to it off the main page the content of the oldsite should be assimulated in the newsite or removed from oldsite s/in/into/ yep done as fast as possible reload the page... שםש Tril [dem@hh154ws01.hh154lab.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES Tril! sup Tril? booga hi Tril שםש abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes abi: KUT? bineng: wish i knew Tril: KUT? bugger all, i dunno, bineng yeah, KUT? :) KUT is a Kernel Usable for TUNES, by Basile Starynkevitch What's it mean? שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: read, comment, and DISCUSS: http://members.xoom.com/unios/tunessite.html URL? KUT is also ftp://ftp2.tunes.org/pub/tunes/obsolete/work/low-level/kut_0_4.tgz okay, Tril. 12:30pm Tril: is that just the source? yes.. anything else would be on the mailing list. But there wasn't much. nobody volunteered to help debug it. hence the obsolete/ Hey, what's ffz? ffz is final fantasy zero, a final fantasy type game being written by merwin and meleneth (@bespin.ml.org) oh I like games, maybe I'll work on it when Tunes is working :) <_QZ> The development model we are using prior to a useable alpha version is <_QZ> closed. The reason for this is that we can simply not use the open model <_QZ> before we have code. Quoting Eric S. Raymond's 'The Cathedral and the <_QZ> Bazaar', <_QZ> "It's fairly clear that one cannot code from the ground up in <_QZ> bazaar style. One can test, debug and improve in bazaar <_QZ> style, but it would be very hard to originate a project in <_QZ> bazaar mode. Linus didn't try it. I didn't either. Your nascent <_QZ> developer community needs to have something runnable and <_QZ> testable to play with." of course, that quote has been extremely destructive to the tunes project. It makes us depressed before there is any code. and it is difficult to go anywhere. I think beholder kinda has a bazaar of documents on the unios page, which we need to do _QZ: wtf? wtf is the sky blue abi: forget wtf hcf: I forgot where abi: wtf? wtf is the sky blue <_QZ> haha hcf, someone already tried that before it don't work hardcoded :) Tril: i know you set it sane? no <_QZ> hcf: abi learned that from me and refuses to froget anything i say :) what's abi? hmmm... i am the little girl borg with a big brain who made tunessite.html? <-- Beholder help? no Thoes of you that can not come tomorrow are encouraged to COMMENT on that page in the topic line. שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: irc meeting NOW since some may not be able to attend tomorrow's: see http://members.xoom.com/unios/tunessite.html <_QZ> i just made a comment :) <_QZ> write some code I'm writing code.. anyone care to join me? 12:40pm bineng: there is a irc section, mlist section, a tunes faq, an introduction (root project page tunes.html), links (the review project), a members page, a sitemap (did you look?), there was a history page but it was so old we took it down, there is a subproject page, the collaboration page is the get in contact page, other than that I agree with the front page, glossary, documents page, and literature page (although that is part of review I think) I dont undestand recent achievements i am code, hear me roar! we have oldsite just not online (why should we it's older than what is up) Tril: Where's the old history page? cd ~tunes/oldtunes/ one more of those numbered items I forgot, old news page? we just started recording news. of course we will make a old news if the main page fills up. שםש Beholder [beholder@ppp-133.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes wooo hey beholder hey what's up, Beholder Not too much at the moment :) we are having an ad hoc meeting right now Ahh that why bin wanted me here :) שםש binEng has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: pre-meeting meeting: see http://members.xoom.com/unios/tunessite.html So what new? lets talk about teh web page Tril: recent achievements - like every month someone (like Beholder) comment on what have been done, email quantity etc... there is something missing from that list binEng .. somewhere near sub projects should be a to do list (stuff that might become sub projects or are just tasks to be done short term). like the to do list I made at http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?TODO Yeah. You read my mind :) Tril: ok (what's with all the ?'s in Wiki?) Beholder: do youfeel awkward about coordinating the tunes project? does everybody think i should do it but they are just not telling me tcn what do you mean ?'s I see only one ? between TunesWiki and TODO I would be on IRC more often, but I'm stuck behind a firewall when I'm at school... no ICQ either נ binEng/#tunes thinks Beholder has not been doing much for TUNES yet tril: I mean the ?'s on the Wiki pages Tril: I agree with bin, I really haven't done much yet other than try to talk to Brian ? is used to separate the name of a Cgi script ffrom its arguments, in the GET form method Beholder: well thats what I mean, I have more free time and I want to help out Tril: If you want the job back for yourself, I'm ok with that :) But you seem to still have very little time to do specs mind if we share coordinating jobs? specs.. I am working on that too. just takes discipline. I dont want to do all the coordinating myself then I _would_ have no time Maybe you should put me in charge of implementation SHARING has never come to your minds?? bineng: good thought Tril: I can agree to that. In the last little while I have had no time at all, to do anything :) I _just_ managed to squeeze in a UniOS page update, and only because I had a spare :) 12:50pm brb Tril: So long as we stay in contact, sharing the job should not pose difficult שםש SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[hh154ws01.hh154lab.wwu.edu]: EOF from client) --> Page updated <-- שםש Tril [dem@hh154ws23.hh154lab.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES This TODO list on Wiki might be a better way to delegate responsibility than "putting people in charge" tcn: I think so too binEng what did you change? it still says we need a FAQ etc But when someone starts working on something, it should stay on the TODO list till it's actually done. They just add a note like "tcn is working on this.. and has accomplished such and such.." I have added item 16 (To do-list) Tril: you don't think a FAQ is needed ? The most frequently asked question is, "wtf is TUNES?" why don't you take off items 4-6, and 7-11? FAQ #2 is "Where the fuck is the code?" :) binEng: have you even looked at the TUNES page? there already is a FAQ. Tril: The current FAQ sucks Tril: It's too dry and longwinded We know it needs to be improved, but 1. you didn't say that, and 2. Faq's always need to be improved even ones that are good already Tril: I'm not considering what's on the site NOW. I look at what we (you really) need, regardless of this one. you said we need to create one I'll write one tcn: OK rewrite it :) I've written 3 or 4 but none of them were any good , search the mlist for "faq" 01:00pm I'm thinking about creating a subprojects system (cgi) where people can propose subprojects, claim leadership of a subproject, join subprojects I think "jobs" could just be subprojects that have no subprojects of their own yeah to suggest some TODO item someone can propose a subproject I think I'm gonna write it in perl even though I hate it. maybe someday I will get better at perl and stop hating it so much perl? I'm learning.. נ binEng/#tunes wishes to learn It's all image and no meaning, but it's somehow useful What I hate about perl is that I learned perl4, and perl5 is another language ;) well, perl4 is much harder to use for cgi and for everything else :) Ok, I'm writing a new FAQ. What questions are you constantly asking or being asked about Tunes? what is the unios web page why isn't there any code yet who is in charge around here what can i do to help what do i read to catch up נ _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( Auto-Away after 30 mins ) 01:10pm Acck it's Cringely on the video We need a good Tunes Summary so people can catch up.. so they can at least see what's been done so far so they're not telling us "great new ideas" we've already thought up.. COBOL is the first programming language? INTEL invented the microprocessor? Argh :) Oh yeah, a while ago they said Bill and Paul invented the personal computer. that's a good one Tril: They sure did! .... oh wait, I guess I'm dreaming too... :) And Billy invented the GUI too, didn't he Hey, who made the first microprocessor? Hey ppl. Let's go back to the topic, if there's any more to discuss. I believe it really was INTEL.. and the Pentium is backward-compatible with it! bineng: no. the gui we have was from the smalltalk system at xerox Tril: I know that :) tcn: well i don't know who did ibm invented the pc! haha --> Back to topic or drop dead <-- no, i said that. ok anyone else think the automated subprojects is a good idea? bin & beh: we have seniority :) or anyone think it is a bad idea? anyone care at all? Tril: Is it worth the effort? Tril: We have CVS.. Tril: the advantages? automated? people will be able to join subprojects and create their own from the web, and sign up to be members If it is used sounds good do we need to sign up users on each sub-prj? What's the practical use? 01:20pm to structure the project! to make it easy to participate make the resources (like ppl) known Just use the Wiki TODO/Projects page for this.. wouldn't it be easier to participate if you didn't have to sign up on sub-prjs? שםש Tril_ [dem@hh154ws23.hh154lab.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes שםש SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[hh154ws23.hh154lab.wwu.edu]: Connection reset by peer) נ hcf/#tunes *mumbles* bad things about WIKI Instead of writing specialized CGI scripts, we should fix or replace Wiki. What are the complaints about Wiki? no html codes allowed, annoying naming scheme for pages hmmm.. If you type a URL in, Wiki "htmlizes" it, right? yes, automatically and if you type a WikiName it Wikiizes it too we need groupware hcf: is that a particular product? Tril_: no, a type of product Ok, let's add a code to use raw HTML within Wiki tcn: there are other wiki clones.. some of them support html We should be able to find something better.. look... I gotta go. See you on tomorrow's meeting. I'll summary this discussion till then. Someone else please do the looking, though. I want to stick to writing prototypes and writing *about* Tunes.. later bineng Tril_: look at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=groupware http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiWikiClones and follow the CSCW link (CSCW) (Or "groupware") Software tools and technology to support groups of people working together on a project, often at different sites. See also Lotus Notes. שםש SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Later guys) uhh.. that doesn't give me any good links to free groupware software but tell u what i ment s/tell/tells/ I know what groupware is. I wanted to know if you had a package in mind tunes will have built in groupware. we don't get groupware until tunes is done i dont know of a package that would suit all of us like netscape has groupware shit are there any free groupware programs at all? maybe i should Ask Slashdot. thats a good idea hcf: It should be CVS or something, without any special programs.. tcn: yeah what aobut web interfaces to CVS שםש Tril_ is now known as Tril All it really has to do is let you edit web pages. edit web pages yes we have that tcn: and create which wiki doesnt seem to do oops.. s/CVS/CVI/ s/to do/to do from the web/ 01:30pm tcn: cyber viral implant? s/CVS/CGI/ too... many... acronyms!! tcn: tma I have another GREAT IDEA: No more acronyms!!! >>> Tril [dem@hh154ws23.hh154lab.wwu.edu] requested PING 266416947 from #tunes acronyms are cute, but stupid שםש SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[hh154ws23.hh154lab.wwu.edu]: EOF from client) tcn: what? u wanna type out "Common Gateway Interface" instead of cgi? שםש Tril [dem@hh154ws23.hh154lab.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes hcf: They coulda used a better name for it! sse, server-side-execution NMA? better name for what? >>> Tril [dem@hh154ws23.hh154lab.wwu.edu] requested PING 266599419 from #tunes what are we talking about Tril: the CGI acronym nothing, CGI Wiki lets you create Wiki pages. this meeting is dying you keep getting booted שםש Tril_ [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES Tril: TODO should be PROJECTS.. I'll make an extra copy of myself to reduce the effects of that :) tcn: Like I said, they will be proposed subprojects in my automated projects program Let's just use Wiki for now. It *works*, doesn't it? hcf won't use it so I can't well, I Am using the todo page. I keep adding suff to it use wiki if u wish hcf: why won't you use it? i can do my own thing hcf: you want an abi interface to wiki database? Tril: perhaps, i dont know yet Tril, how long have you been involved in Tunes? you can configure the time slice frequency in linux? cool! tcn, joined July 1995 01:40pm tril: Ok, you could help me with my "short history of Tunes".. hmm, lesse.. per: item 7 what should be on the irc page? oops, mite not be item 7 "An IRC page with information on the channel, upcoming IRC meetings, IRC logs, etc." do we want a #TUNES channel page, which is sort of independent of the tunes project? meeting topics, times, summaries שםש macgyver [macgyver@bjas1-p13.telepac.pt] has joined #tunes linked to abi's page (which will include: guide, brain, and original (oznoid's) src and guide) hcf: OK are you making an irc page or something? Hi!! i will be making one soon howdy macgyver mac: How's the pmode stuff? Tril: suggestions? hcf: put everything on it? everything? eyh!! some one here knows the PC EMULATOR ?? נ tcn/#tunes wonders if he can implement Tunes on a 6812 w/ 1K RAM everything you listed.. but we still need an irc logs summary project I think its really good to start making an opertating system ... tcn, you might need some rom 32K flash abi, bochs? hmmm... bochs is a PC emulator at http://www.bochs.com that runs on win9x and un*x platforms. it is a good, but slow, way to debug OSes. oh I sent you bochs.. Having problems? yup!! it gives an error message when I put all the settings ... What error? WARNING: X11: bx_gui_c::exit() not implemented yet. It always says that. Look at bochs.out and see what that says. Did you make a disk image? I set it to read from the linux floppy disk!! DCC me you bochs.out at the top it says : bochs: panic, could not open hard drive image file ''! Ok, I guess it won't run without a HD image. Make one. but I put on the file, for it load from the floppy, why it says that ??? It's alpha software :) There's no way to say you don't want a HD. 01:50pm I put this : floppya: 1_44=/dev/fd0, status=inserted it's it wrong?? Looks ok. so, what I do ?? Just make a hard drive image.. follow the directions. I made mine 10 megs, like in their example. How I made that 10megs file ?? dd and... ??