ωνω NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from lucas.openprojects.net [04:51am] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net lucas.openprojects.net ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[bespin.ml.org]) ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-120-18.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes om :)))))) I think I'm on to something!!!! :P It has to do with one of the hardest branches of Mathematics but I think it holdz the key! =P 06:20am ωνω smkl [sami@ppp27.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes π AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations smkl!" :-) hi Alonzo 07:30am I think I figured it out... 07:40am ωνω SignOff bytor: #TUNES (Ping timeout for bytor[ppp6.bsb.k12.la.us]) :| 08:40am !asimov.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT norton.openprojects.net 8004 from ^lilo WAKE UP!!!!!! 10:10am I'm up, I'm up what is the hardest branch of mathematics? π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 16 hrs 49 min 28 secs 10:40am Signon time : Fri Dec 25 06:52:11 1998 Signoff time : Fri Jan 1 11:07:55 1999 Total uptime : 7d 4h 15m 44s SignOff: TUNES (TUNES has no reason) IRC log ended Fri Jan 1 11:07:55 1999 tcn [tcn@cci-209150250040.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes Allright, I got some scripts going for the Glossary hi tcn hey I'm fixing the TUNES log so it will change files every day correctly that would be nice Hey, are you using perl for that? No, it's just an ircII ON TIMER command. I'm sorta learning perl as I write this glossary thing I managed to make it turn http://whatever/whatever.html into a tag.. that's cool :) perl is pissing me off! perl is annoying to debug. I think maybe the debug module is good, but I haven't learned it The syntax is so damn complicated It is good for text processing, though.. that's why I'm not using something like Forth >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250040.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 915219596 from #tunes test 11:50am ωνω Starting logfile 1999.0101 IRC log started Fri Jan 1 11:50:50 1999 ωνω Value of LOG set to ON [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0101 ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250040.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 915220238 from #tunes welcome _QZ happy new year I typed that, it's not automatic:) ok, the logs from xmas to today are now in separate files for each day 12:00pm cool what do you think of this: Tunes goal: to eliminate the difference between high-level and low-level uhhhhh maybe I guess you'll have to explain yourself better you're right, it's not clear. i'll leave it It sounds kinda like a vague way of saying "to eliminate the distinction between user and programmer" or at least blur it well, we do need to provide a uniform interface to all levels of the system. that interface is the same for users, programmers, and programs. 12:10pm I see now >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250040.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 915221303 from #tunes are you lagged? >>> smkl [sami@ppp27.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] requested CLIENTINFO from #tunes probably I'm also writing the glossary scripts though π Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk- food) [BX-MsgLog Off] ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) 12:20pm hmm spec of specs? π _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( Auto-Away after 30 mins ) 12:30pm π _QZ/#tunes is BACK [away time = 0h:6m:4s] BTW, Ultima is here, in #linpeople (I'm not back yet) 12:50pm !asimov.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT norton.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo π _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( Auto-Away after 30 mins ) om 01:10pm <_QZ> fag 01:30pm om You are reeding this really 1337 theory book... <_QZ> fag There is a function reading "Q*L1 => L1" Is that the same as L1 *=Q; ? Q*L1 might mean a tuple. what book is that? okay , What the fuck is a tuple? I read the word tupple somehwhere in the book. The book is Algorythmic Information Theory. It's really really 1337 like, A*B is a datastrcuture including A and B I'm not :(((( hmmz. Anyway I wanted to discuss the book. From what the book seems to say is that there is a way to express a computer program in the form of a "Diophantine Equation" The only problem is that they are extremely HUGE and ineficient :P what is a "Diophantine Equation" But concievably it might be possible to reduce them or use some other method of expressing them and make them an efficient way to write platform independant binaries... I mean *perfect* platform independance!!! =) I found the phrase "diophantine equation" in the dictionary. Want me to get it for you? 01:40pm π AlonzoTG/#tunes slaps smkl around a bit with a large trout uhhuh π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 1 hrs 23 min 6 secs an equation with two trunks? 01:50pm ωνω SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...) ωνω binEng [bineng@dialup46-3-6.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes greetings hi, you just sent some mail.. are you finished posting to unios? finished for tonight, yes why? I wanted to move emails over and then in MY replies I would change the To: to send to the tunes list...so no one else would have to do it that assumes everyone else stops writing mail and just waits for me to reply.. not very likely umm not likely, no :) π binEng/#tunes tunes in Tunes 02:20pm did you read my post on reflection I wrote for you yet? yep did you reply to it in email I posted some kind of reply ok..I'll get to it eventually! k I'm still at the mail from the 26th.. I've finally sent Beholder a document for the site where I explain mOS I think it's best explained there, I've taken comments and questions into account when writing it. Heh... *what* email from the 26th? there's lots of 'em! Sigh. The glossary entry for Orthogonal Persistence sucks Your glossary needs a major overhaul tcn is doing the glossary, I think. anyone may contribute to revising any of the web pages. It barely explains what persistance IS... just advocates for it write up a new entry! that's the kind of thing we could use.. 02:30pm I could work forever if I were to fix that glossary... and it's HUGE! Why on earth is communism explained?? Fare wrote all of the Glossary. you should thank him for all the work A little too much work, IMO. There's simply so much text that you get bored when reading some definition... or rather discussion. it's got political definitions in there because they are metaphors for control, and apply to OSes I surely admire his authoring abilities, but the subject isn't what he should lay so much energy on. so, how about cynism? That's in too. come on, don't be narrow minded. Programming is a SOCIAL activity. :) cynicism can cause you to write a certain kind of programs, which in turn can encourage cynicism in users.. Would you regard entropy as the opposite to information? Judging from what I've learned, it's the same thing. how is it the same thing? 02:40pm Entropy = uncertainty With bigger uncertainty in data, the information given by the data is bigger because you can't predict what is to come next... and so it gives more information. you c? hmm I don't think uncertainty is even a property of data. How can it be? ωνω NetSplit: vinge.openprojects.net split from forward.openprojects.net [02:46pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [vinge.openprojects.net] i don't understand om =P AlonzoTG: how about that definition? ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers) ωνω Netjoined: vinge.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net ωνω binEng [bineng@dialup46-3-6.swipnet.se] has joined #TUNES ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES did you read what I said? ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers) ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES if the stream is completely random then it contains more information. predictability = entropy. so unpredictability = information , ok 02:50pm k :) I think that means you were right. but entropy is the opposite of info entropy = unpredictability no Okay: The dictionary reedz: "diophantine equation: 1928; An ideterminated polynomial equation with integral coeficients for which it is required to find all integral solutions" The book I'm reedin addz: that uses only addition, multiplication and exponentiation... redundancy = predictability Think of it this way, redundancy holds less information because it can be compressed. greets Alonzo Actually in physics highly entropic states contain the most information... Tril, that is just what I say listen to Alonzo :) U R leet, 'lonzo :P binEng, no you just contradictred yourself :) Tril, I can send you that essay of mine, I know my stuff ;) redundancy is opposite to entropy redundancy=entropy=predictability, information=difference=unpredictability. the two sets are opposite of each other. Think of the information it would take to adiquately reproduce something... I agree on the right set, but the left one is wrong. AlonzoTG: always thinking of nanotech, arenty you :) redundancy is predictability, but not entropy... Nah, I'm always thinking of OS... Okay, your definition of entropy is wrong, then! Entropy is a state of increased chaos and lower energy. entropy is a measure of 1 - [degree of order] energy is the inverse of information. π binEng/#tunes offers Tril that essay once again what esssay my essay :) Where? Lets revisit the problem of developing platform independant binaries. on my hdd... Essays should be on the WWW. well well :) do you think I should put it there? ya, then I'll read it :) hey, I got 10 megs on my website to fill... :P :) me too 03:00pm This problem of platform independance is the most dificult and crucial we face! you think so? what makes it so difficult? Yes, I do. Uh. Think of the radical differences between machines... Distributed machines, paralell machines... machines that go bump in the night. green machines. I wrote something down on that... I'll revise it and post it another day. purple machines. Think of Java... java ? It's not very good and yet took years of research to develop. u're right... Think of the problems of write once run anywhere and of how difficult it will be to communicate computing methods to different machines. I've not studied Java closer, so I can't say much about it. Like writing one code breaker that will run both on digital and quantum machines... the only way you could do that is if you stored the actual idea in the computer instead of a program representing the idea I don't think a single binary for all architectures is a good idea. or the source code why not? Tril, you go on much about that... do you know how to actually do it? no, it can't be done, I was taunting him. π binEng/#tunes is confused I WAS BEING SARCASTIC π binEng/#tunes begin to sweat it is good to come as close as possible to the idea ideas can only be stored in computers as information representing the relationship between the idea and all other objects in the computer. "only"? whereas pure ideas contain information about relationship between the idea and EVERY other idea, even ones that haven't been thought of yet "only" what I said, or something less than that, not anything more 18 new msgs since yesterday on the tunes list... argh how will you handle that? do I need to read the archive to see them? 03:10pm yes, you will, but you can download it in mailbox format if you like the tunes list will have to do the same thing for old unios messages when the unios threads move to the tunes list ic But both lists are getting so much traffic now I think we're going to have to split the tunes list split how? BTW, I read all posts to the Tunes list under the last month, last night :P i wasn't finished until early in the morning wow, that's about 105 messages yup. Well to be honest I was doing other things as well... like writing on the mOS doc I don't know...I guess I'll read the new ones first (before thinking about how to split it) Are you thinking of splitting by subject? Like, making language posts into an own list yes good idea :) how else would it be split? by author? :) heh how about date? :) it already is. it's just a coarse grain split (one per month) yeah yeah yeah i could make it a digest I guess nah i still like subjects better yes ok.. how about an announcements list, a "sharing links to papers and sites" one, a "coordination" list (to volunteer for jobs), 03:20pm brb ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes back... hcf: the irc logs are split by day up to the present Tril: try home7.swipnet.se/w-71548/communication.doc .doc? is that MS word? Tril: i noticed Tril, wrong URL anyway and, yes MS Word I can't read that right now, sorry can you save as RTF? I have an rtf to html converter. or use word97's save as html Tril: add to ur to-visit list: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/transit/reconfigurable_computing.html I can save as HTML directly hcf: hmm, that sounds familiar. did you check if it was already in my bookmarks? Tril: no, oops yeah, I've already got it. thanks tho :) http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-71548/Communication.html it deals not only with entropy... Tril: r u aware of the Express Project at MIT? hcf: what is it? Programming Language Structures for Systems Software. They have built an "ML/OS" running ML on the raw hardware. binEng: you better talk to Fare about entropy.. I don't know it very well heh, I've got no problem with entropy. no, I mean about his Glossary entry k if you think it's unclear or misleading 03:30pm Fare, you say? I thought you mentioned some other person no, I said Fare wrote all the Glossary tcn is doing the glossary, I think. Fare wrote all of the Glossary. you should thank him for all the work k Oh, yes I meant tcn is working on the glossary currently. I don't know what exactly he is doing, though.. so, who *should* I talk to? :) π Tril/#TUNES panics binEng: i was 'working' w/ him I don't know!!! aaaaaaaaaa ;) not much order in your project, is there. if all else fails, talk to Pat. no there isn't. hopefully there will be a change to that hcf: who were you working with? tcn what is he doing? on the glossary thing is he splitting it into individual files, like Fare wanted? does he want to be maintainer of that page, (so people contributing to it can be referred to him)? yeah, thats what we prefered or along with you, maybe? he afaik doesnt want to be a maintainer so you guys are just doing a one-time change to it. that works kinda fare wants indiv. files, what do u want, Tril? well, I agree it takes too long to load. k, good ;) but it being available, as all in one, would be good too However, for some of the issues I think they need whole top-level pages devoted to them, like persistence, reflection, distribution, and modularity. (they should be main branches of the site, not just part of a glossary) 03:40pm (just to name a few) tril, good idea those that are main features of Tunes (just to name a few) :) hey, I have an idea what if we describe the tunes project as more of what it actually is (turning out to be), than what we want it to be I like the idea of what you want it to be. I support it 100% I just have my own OS project. So what I'm going to do is make my OS so that it will easily and elegantly support a Tunes environment so you have a stalbe and flexable platform to experament with. :) say "TUNES is a loose-knit collection of developers, researchers, and other interested people sharing ideas, and (hopefully someday) code" don't forget to mention your goals too... My OS has it's future development strategy built in. It provides modules with simple services. binEng: which goals? If one module has a really really good scheduling system, then that scheduling system is moved down to the core so that it becomes the scheduler for the entire system.... well, whatever goals you might have ;) I have several layers of goals. goal == cyberneticks. :) Right now I'm trying to figure out what are the common goals of everyone here or on the tunes list does everyone just want a better OS? I want more than that... but I'm not a Tunes member how about a LASTING software system that can evolve? does that accurartely describe all our ideals? I hate windoze Yes, I have been designing my os from the start to be "the os for the next 20 years" π AlonzoTG/#tunes loves DOs well, UniOS places flexibility as priority #1, to make it useful on the largest number of platforms for the longest time. π Tril/#TUNES hereby declares the acronym DOS to stand for, and ONLY for, "Denial Of Service." do you agree Alonzo? fine I'll write it out... The Disk operating System is the best OS made to date! The Disk Operating System has more user features than any other OS I know! 03:50pm what of Distributed OS? AlonzoTG: my friend Toogam thinks that too. :) he only uses Windows because it has a WYSIWYG html editor too many 'o', it's spelled togam ωνω binEng2 [andman4@dialup46-3-6.swipnet.se] has joined #Tunes you know what it stands for?? I use windoze 3.11 cuz mIRC is the best... No. I thought you were calling me a magot. :P hi! I'm using my other computer (right beside the first one), throu a proxy. Works great! In that case, it's spelled maggot does TG stand for The Great? π AlonzoTG/#tunes can't spell Yes, /me is Alonzo The Great! :) cya ωνω SignOff binEng2: #TUNES (Leaving) binEng: maybe you can write a FAQ for IRC through proxy. I know lots of people who would benefit from it. or a HOWTO, I mean AlonzoTG: toogam stands for The One Of Greatness and Magnificence. well I only know how to do it in Windows and mIRC hehe See Disk operating System is BOSS!!! :P binEng: how? π hcf/#tunes is away 01/01/99 18:58:01 EDT : food I use WinGate, and set up the information needed in mIRC. And, a network makes it easier... :) are you using IRC through a firewall? well yes... I had to set it up in mIRC as a firewall where... GetRight throu the proxy too... this is really great does mirc have options for firewalls? where=there what is wingate? mIRC: yes, setup info box 04:00pm Wingate is a program that makes your connected machine into a proxy does it do IP masquerading? www.wingate.com/overview.html 404 not found htm sorry, eh yes htm I don't know if it does IP masquerading It seems to be a 3rd party program that does the same thing as IP masquerading, as if no such thing existed 3rd party, yes... and I know nothing about IP masquerading om speak out, AlonzoTG I thought you all were interested in the problem of platform independance? well yes... who says we're not? I brought it up and you ignored it... maybe I was just getting to excited over a new find... :P you say something, and we'll comment on it ;) Okay, You were starting to say something but you stopped: Like writing one code breaker that will run both on digital and quantum machines... Any of you hear of a method of generating a mathematical formula for computer algorythms... That was on subject, I was giving an exmaple of platform independance, you mean the enormous field called "functional programming"? Well, duh. everyone's heard of that. Functional programming? 04:10pm "functions" in functional programming are , guess what, mathematical formulae off to amazon.com... AlonzoTG: Try TUNES Review first. I never learned what that meant... Okay... LISP, ML, Scheme, Haskell Hmm, I heard of Lisp, I will be learning a version of LISP as I read algorythmic information theory... ML: dunno, scheme, dunno, haskell: dunno they're all functional languages, but there are tons more Tril... I'm reading Brian's spec on his arrow prototype... and I don't understand a word of what he says. Should I write a reply where I nail down everything I don't understand? i dont know..it doesn't make sense to me either. and others have said the same thing the same thing what? other people couldn't understand Brian's posts either I can understand *that* :) But you never know, it could be something great... WOW wel, I'm not saying it's not good, what I am saying is it is gradually getting easier to understand The Prototype will be in C but I havn't decide what the final version will be in. i think it will become clear wow what? do you understand it? a couple weeks ago it made no sense, but recently Brian's posts have been more clear to me. that could be because they did not talk about the arrow system But this guy is expecting that you follow his reasonings... he doesn't understand that most ppl doesn't understand what he's talking about... he'll want you to code the thing, he'll be disappointed. how far are you caught up? have you read today's messages? I'm reading them Can you explain, if just fussy, what IS an arrow? an object :) 04:20pm or, should I say, the other way around? oh, and there are other objects than arrows? not in brian's system. i mean in his system objects are arrows. k I think there may be other arrows than objects. The arrows are just one way of looking at things, that he chose to use for his system ok, so that doesn't explain what they are :) I think they are just binary relations. do yo know what that is? and arrows have one start and one end, each which are pointers to an object? not exactly... ithink the start and end are pointers to other arrows wait no, start and end are pointers to groups of arrows how can that be... are groups also objects? (or arrows?) yeh, I think a group of arrows is an arrow too but an arrow is two pointers? so a group of arrows would point at something? ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[escher.sdi.agate.net]) ok, these are good questions. in the end this is inpossible... infinite numbers of arrows would be needed, and still nothing is achieved ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes hcf: can you explain arrows? there's 2 choices: help brian get to IRC (through his firewall), or email him on the list binEng: nope you see the problem? nobody really understands what he is talking about. infinite numbers of arrows? Yes, he talks about that a lot. but that is impossible... that would require infinite storage But as for infinite nesting depth, that is a consequence of a reflective system. freeze it here explain that! I'll explain it in terms of my model, then everything is an object, and every object is made of other objects. in fact, all objects have other objects inside them. So you have an infinite nesting depth. The way to STOP the nesting is by using reflection. but you said in the list there was no "in" 04:30pm I also said 'in' can mean many things. So pretend there's an 'in' for now infinite nesting requires infinite storage, if no circles exist let's assume we don't have infinite storage and all objects do not have a need for other objects inside them therefore, some objects need to be "in" themselves, or in some other objects that are in themselves. so "in" is just pointers? !drow:*! What was that one for? BTW, we don't have to *assume* we don't have infinite storage. unfortunately. ok let's change it it = ? objects are not 'in' other objects, instead say that objects specifications are defined by expressions. And expresisons are structures of objects. the expressions can use pointers, that's ok. π binEng/#tunes is thinking think of the spec expr as a statement in a language defining what an object is. but that would create circular definitions yes, it does. would it work? it's tricky but if you use 'time' you solve it wtf... if I write an implementation of a language, err start over if I design a new language, and there are no implementations for it then the first implementation for it has to be written in some other language. but after I have an implementation, I can rewrite the language in itself. yes bootstraping 04:40pm there are 2 things: implementation, and source now, you COULD say there is a circular dependency: the implementation depends on the source, and the source depends on the implementation. is the source the source of the implementation? well, you might think so but in reality, the language can never implement itself. It can implement an identical language, but it's still different. Becaiuse it came from a different point in the chain of implementations. if it's the 2nd implementation, it depends on its source and the 1st imeplemntation. hmm if you use the 2nd implementation to compile the source again, you don't get the 2nd implementation again, you get the 3rd, which may be the same binary file , even but a different implementation. do you get it? yep so in the reflective system, it appears like there are infinite nestings of references, or that some objects refer to tehsemvels or to other objects which refer to themselves, but those are relaly OLDER VERSIONS of the same objects. apply that to those object definitions then the question becomes does it self orgainize or does it dekay? so it appears some objects define themselves, or define other objects which define themselves. the programmer organizes it if we count the version numbers as part of the object, this illusion goes away. in an implementation, it is an older version of the object which defines it. AlonzoTG: what do you mean by your question? but that can never make a whole system. In the bottom, you always need something to stand on. can't it just stand on the older version? what do you mean by bottom? chaos theory. Does the system tend towards order or chaos? no, since there's always a number #1. Bottom: The other compiler you used to make the first compiler for the new lang. AlonzoTG: you mean the systme we're talking about, with objects that define themself? yes 04:50pm AlonzoTG: Neither. Equilibrium. (Just the right balance of order and chaos) don't get off track binEng: I thought we already covered that. Bootstrapping? the first impemenation of the objects is defined in terms of some other objects (not itself) but that won't do! there must be a first object. the first object is written in C (for example). It acts like an object, but inside the object system you can't access its source code (because its source code is not an object) ok so the first object is a part of the kernel, kinda hehe.. that's a good new definition of a kernel, we could use that :) kernel: The part of the system used to initially implkement the object system, until the object system can be used to implement itself. guess so I don't think we should say that's a kernel, it'd be too confusing. but yes, the "primitives" or basis of the system would have to be non-objects first but practically... how do you get something out of just object references? !lilo:*! user comes onto a channel and starts using racial epithets !lilo:*! no reason, they just seemed to be enjoying themselves, no indication why they picked the channel they did !lilo:*! so no indication they wouldn't pick another random channel well, how do you write programs? you construct them by putting together objects in different shapes (syntaxes) I don't know how you do, but I basicly program by combining assembler commands. even in assembler, programs are still expressions 05:00pm one expression (the whole program), consisting of a sequence of instructions agreed each instruction is an expression which can be one of the valid instructions yep all programming is done by making references to language constructs (in asm, instructions, memory and registers) !lilo:*! the other one was random sexual epithets, again on a random channel letz talk kode. !lilo:*! no idea what it was about, they probably had no idea either How do you plan to kode? but asm commands are the most fundamental structures you'll get (if not counting binary digits). They cannot refer to some other object !wichert:*! no clueless people allowed :) I plan to start off with a dry run, I implement a vastly oversimplified version of the entire system, in my ideal world, code would be combinations of objects, that I would organize by dragging with the mouse Then with a working prototype finalize the design for the commercial version... !^lilo:*! well, no cluelessly obnoxious people, for certain 8) Tril, read my post to UniOS' list about reflection. I read it, do you want me to reply in the channel? <_QZ> binEng: u trying to understand how tunes works? not necessary I only have 7 more messages to read before I will be caught up! k QZ: well, kinda. Arrows, originally. I think we came off track The reason is because I don't really understand arrows. I can't talk about them. But you said infinite nesting was a result of reflection. Have we just come to the conclusion that the nesting indeed is not infinite? 05:10pm <_QZ> arrows? _QZ: Brian Rice's research is a language he calls "Arrow". <_QZ> is this on the tunes mailing list or a page? the mailing list binEng: the nesting is not infinite , if you allow equivalent objects to substitute in place of each other. om before you said the nesting is infinite, but now you agree it isn't, right? yeah, it just appears infinite. until you look closer at it. yeah, exactly. But what GOOD is all this?? It allows everything to be an object. No system exists today in which everything is an object. Always something has to be a non-object. You're wrong, you admitted there has to be non-objects. so in our system, everything will be an object, but at some point one of the objects will be defined by non-objects. yes The KEY is that the non-objects won't be needed anymore. And everything can be done with the pure objects. In my OS everything is an objeckt.... :P bullshit, Tril You'll ALWAYS need non-objects crap. I've pissed someone off again. :) i hate it when that happens or you won't reach the hardware Hardware ... hehe Okay, while you are figuring out how to write tunes, help me with my OS. :P In my system, the hardware is objects, too heh (okay, everybody say "me too" and get it over with) me too... and I don't need infinite nesting MEE T0000!!!!!! AlonzoTG: I dunno... _QZ says I should kick you out Well you know what QZ is... :P π binEng/#tunes wonders: what's QZ? the two least-used letters of the alphabet π binEng/#tunes turns into a Buddha and vanishes from this earth 05:20pm aaah, Nirvana! :P the quiestion is... can you really reach Nirvana without The Perfect OS (tm) ? hehe ching-ching-ching, ching ching, ching-chingching, ching ching, ching-ching-ching... Okay, It looks like Lambda calculus will go a long way towards solving our platform independance issues, Lets talk again about puking out binaries and linking em... =P No, let's talk about what Lambda calculus is. we got compilers to do the former, and I need serious ammounts of help doing the latter. I don't know lambda calculus :((( smells like tunes spirit I'm going to hire someone who does. Or, you could take 10 minutes and LEARN lambda calculus. *sigh* Not tonight. we could just have TRIL explain it for us I only need lambda calculus for the final version. I can hack the prototype without it. but I URGENTLY need a linker to finish the prototype. in a hurry? plan to finish tonight? DAMN RIGHT, i WANT TO GET THIS MUDA PHUCKA DONE!!!! :| I don't care :> don't you want to see billy squirm? heh yes he already is, he created too many enemies we gotta write OS!!!!! 05:30pm Am I the only one here who wants to see something functional within 4 months? and market it with "MS is bad. use this instead." wants and wants... we're maybe more realistical no ok, let's say you finish this in 4 months. So what would you do the rest of your life? Grow vegetables? I have designed a prototype in what form is that prototype? skelatal lemme c (He has directories and empty source files in the directories) geez, that's not an OS design I hope the idea is more developed than that me too I need a linker to move forward! what are you linking? I don't know how things will fit togeather untill I have the linker. The goddamned prototype. When I write it... easy.. use Tril's model, and have the linker refer to itself. You won't even need hardware to run it Hmm..I don't think you mean a linker in the sense everybodfy else means a linker.. What do you mean by link. Tasm came with Tlink, a linker for DOS exe files. I need a compile time linker to put modules togeather. and a runtime linker to bind the functions, but in the prototype eac module will do its own linking... 05:40pm what format are modules in before and after they are linked? .obj, and then after they are in my propriatary format. Hmmz. hey...'. I just thought of a way around it!!!!! =P ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: smells like tunes spirit won't work though :((( π hcf/#tunes is away 01/01/99 20:46:32 EDT : it'd be nice if it did werk... π binEng/#tunes plays Nirvana music oops π hcf/#tunes is back thinking.... thinking.... brain overheating.... π hcf/#tunes spins pearljam and ween hey.... oh yeah... <_QZ> shutup fag π AlonzoTG/#tunes 1337 h4x0r d00d AlonzoTG: push the little daisies and make 'em come up π Tril/#TUNES is away: (brb-food) [BX-MsgLog Off] *Grin* *sob* If I did it that way I would have to write everything in assembly :((((((( Hmmz. Yep. :(((' or write some simple language that translates into asm easily C will do that... Hmmz... or use Terse thinking some more... Nah, terse is expensive... 05:50pm not THAT expensive π AlonzoTG/#tunes has no money sell your computer And program with what? well you could keep your keyboard or something heh. The defunct gremlincomputer is too weak to do anything even though I built it 8 years ago... hmmz.... Nah, that doesn't werk :( hey I got an idea... how about doing some work if you work, you get money. TCC++ 3.0 compiles to TASM and I like NASM I've applied for 10 jobs. Nobody likes me :((( some computer related work, maybe laugh. I don't know 'doze don't know VB. don't know WP don't know MSO98 don't know mw don't know LN don't know lan don't know novel DOS? Unbeatable ;) Would you OS be an open source project? yes, but comercial like redhat. 06:00pm k Perhaps not *completely* open source but mostly... My own environment module will be propriatary. The official kernel will be propriatary. But the rest will be free and open like the POSIX compatability module... And the Networking support subsystem... Is there any OS you don't think sucks? DOS really? technically it sucks but it makes up for it with a great UI... π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 17 min 15 secs π Tril/#TUNES gets out the Clue Bat what UI... π Tril/#TUNES whomps Alonzo π AlonzoTG/#tunes is DOS phreek c'mon DOS sucks AlonzoTG: command.com, a great ui? All the programs written for DOS comprise the greatest UI ever! :) give up AlonzoTG: give up, shut up, and die om π binEng/#tunes votes for that hey, I can't help it that I've used DOS for 12 years! ωνω mode/#TUNES [+o Tril] by ChanServ ωνω mode/#TUNES [+t] by Tril ωνω mode/#TUNES [-t] by ChanServ others know when it's time to move on I'm a moron so sue me ωνω ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: AlonzoTG: give up, shut up, and die AlonzoTG: give up, shut up, and die π binEng/#tunes sues AlonzoTG Who is in trouble here tril? I could tell you AlonzoTG, but you wouldn't like it ωνω ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: No OS Wars here, please DOS is a good OS in the same way that a blank sheet of paper is a good article Is there any OS you don't think sucks? there's nothing tghere, so you can do whatever you want ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes so I answered, And then you got mad at me. :( that's our right :) that's how OS wars start! nah... 'cause I don't see DOS as a serious OS anymore. 06:10pm Oaky I thank you for suggesting Non-linking... I think I might to get that to barely work... that's good enuff for the prototype! :P or use my MISC design and simulate the whole OS :) I don't know enuff about simulators or architectures... :( ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes Hey kid greetings om get ready , Beholder's coming Who is beholder oh oh :) ultima: the new coordinator of TUNES :) the Great Leader Er, ok Tril: I thought that was like fare He Who Knows It All The Superior The King of Code u sure =) binEng is his lackey or, as we call him, Pat. :) oh Beholder == pat wendorf yup okie ωνω rend_ [rend@216-119-133-183.ipset13.wt.net] has joined #tunes π AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations rend_!" :-) microsoft is calling their os after windows 2k tunes! rend im sure check out tunes.microsoft.com rend: Ha ha. Go away, troll :) 06:20pm ωνω rend_ [rend@216-119-133-183.ipset13.wt.net] has left #tunes [] ok, what does everyong think about my mailing list split suggestion? (http://www2.tunes.org/list/tunes/9901/msg00015.html) I like the tunes-links btw i need your guys help with something good idea. I don't like lists when they get too busy. <_QZ> hmm that tunes.microsoft.com isnt in my dns QZ hey! <_QZ> whats the ip? _QZ: He was being a twit <_QZ> ultima: sup there is no tunes.microsoft.com <_QZ> ah Tril, no language section? binEng: what would you suggest? hehehhe we dont need one i need help with the boring work oh well since fare is such a non-standard type ultima: I think ppl would be glad to help, to make it go faster tril yeah well i got exams coming up and i dont have enough time o do it and its taking long enough as it is ωνω Beholder [beholder@ppp-048.m2-1.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes tril: Honestly I just need people to go over the 'languages' part of the review project, clean up the links, and stick it in text files that i can import into the database Even more people here tonight :) ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[escher.sdi.agate.net]) (You know, finding dead links and such) ωνω ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: captain on the bridge:) hi beholder <_QZ> damnit ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes Hello π AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Beholder!" :-) <_QZ> i was just gonna tell M$ what i thought of them on that nice link they have It looks like a dirty disgusting hack will save my prototype... hrms Full speed ahead _QZ heh <_QZ> but it seems i registered with them to downlaod something and used the email address "blowme@fags.r.us" π Beholder/#tunes greets all the OS project people :) just ignore rend he's a wannabe troll <_QZ> so one of u will need to tell them that innovate doesnt mean assimilate _QZ: Heh last night I downloaded MS NetShow for linux, it doesnt even work Well I Guess i should notbe surprised but still =) <_QZ> hahaha i downlaoded it too binEng: did you mean to suggest a "language" mailing list? I was. Until everyone protested. As project coordinator... I talk to Billy G. I'm sure I can get him to devote MS resources to us... HAHAHAHAHHAAAHA... :) Beholder: ready to move all the subscribers? do you want to close the unios mailing list, to ensure posts to the tunes list? <_QZ> Beholder: hello If you did, yer fired !! :) Beh -P <_QZ> hahahah yes close unios, kill kill kill, crush, destory, we will assimilate! resistance is futile, we will assimilate your project Ok... maybe we can do a project takeover of Win 2000... Personally I think we can make it better... :) binEng: Only ultima protested. I didn't know he constituted "everyone" :-P Tril: neither do I :) Tril/binEng, well your in for a big shock -- I do binEng:what exactly would we talk about on such a list? that's what I was asking.. Hey when did I oppose a language list? Tril: I think this may be a good idea. Can you sign up my list without them athorizing? (nasty, but I want it to be seamless) Tril: arrows :> oh wait, I sort of did didnt I 06:30pm here comes the post man with the morning paper :P Beholder: They already kinda did, Alonzo and binEng said we should do it that way You know... this situation cannot hold much longer. When I begin school again, you'll never see me at such convenient times for you. So what was UniOS Beholder: yes, if I have the email addresses I can add them myself <_QZ> any1 know anything about netscapes cookie file for linux? the UniOS list is to cease? <_QZ> i wanna know if its safe to manually delete lines from it Hey! Someone just unsubscribed from tunes. that's the first in about a month ult: WAS UNIOS!!? Oh the list... thought I was being assimilated ;) Tril: Hmm. bin: I dunno yet... what do you think. Can we exist solely on the Tunes list? Well, that would suggest a really close relationship to Tunes Beholder: Also consider the suggestion I just posed for splitting the tunes list. Think how UniOS would fit in those, and suggest more π ultima/#Tunes is pondering tril can tunes bootstrap? I'll have a closer look at the splitting suggestion ωνω ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: http://www2.tunes.org/list/tunes/9901/msg00015.html ωνω ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: http://www2.tunes.org/list/tunes/9901/msg00015.html (Splitting the tunes list) I think it's a nice idea Beholder so what do you want tunes to do <_QZ> die <_QZ> :) QZ =) binEng: do you want a full merger between unios and tunes? <_QZ> ultima: can tunes bootstrap???? HAHAHHAHAHAHHA, tunes isnt even designed yet Til: How about a UniOS general list also.... ultima yeah, you really didn't miss much, if you mean code π ultima/#Tunes ponders why am I so damn tired Tril, in the end, yes. However, I want to give both projects a little time first. i just woke up at 12 its only 8:40 06:40pm <_QZ> ultima: dont know, but i had a nice 3hr nap today :) Beholder: I can create a unios@tunes.org list. Then subscribe all unios emails to both unios and tunes@tunes.org. ok? bin: I agree, we are not ready for full merger yet Tril: Yes that is perfect <_QZ> Tril: god damn u sound just like billg _QZ how so? That way we can mail about our current issues, and also catch up to the Tunes concepts <_QZ> Tril: embrace, extend, exterminate and Tunes can get a little structure _QZ hardly. I think instead I just sold out the TUNES project. <_QZ> :) QZ: Don't worry... I'll have a chat with Bill, and tell him "Frankly Bill, I'm worried about your company... you need to diversify, why not go into coaster manufacture... oh wait thats what win98 is for!" heh. You know your stuff Beholder _QZ: Triple X philosophy eh <_QZ> hahaha π ultima/#Tunes yawns π ultima/#Tunes growls "... or maybe frisbee manufacture... oh damn, I guess thats what NT is... no wonder YOUR CEO, always one step ahead" Gakuk!!! FARE! and a happy new year, too! ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (changing servers) ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes Fare: check the topic π ultima/#Tunes sighs om π Beholder/#tunes has a bunch of people over at his house... very loud... all playing pool. Message-ID: stupid paste button BTW: Updated UniOS page Beholder, again you forgot to change the "Last Update" line. grr and I'd prefer to have a real background image on that doc (must complain when I get the chance :) ) oh, maybe tunes-link and tunes-reviews should be the same? why is my net connection sucking so much or is tunes-link more of a tunes-reviews-announce? bin: ACK! Oh well, I hope noone else notices :) ultima: you didn't sacrifice a chicken Fare: Ah, that must be it π ultima/#Tunes sacrifices Fare in the chickens place Fare: reviews more for the recent discussion of Forth etc, links for just URLs wow my screen was ok for a few days, but goes wierd again since yesterday varley is lagged 06:50pm <_QZ> hey i got an idea for tunes and unios me too tell the world <_QZ> u are doing fine on getting lots of ppl, web pages, mailing lists, blah blah blah. how about getting some1 to do soem coding??? its just an idea <_QZ> :) _QZ: Amen QZ: too early for UniOS π ultima/#Tunes is gonna get a job coding an OS <_QZ> it might not be that important so u can probably just forget i said it ultima: gonna get paid too? :P bineng yeah big bux <_QZ> after all microsoft never did any coding and look at all the OSes and programs they have :) ohh big plans QZ, good argument. Maybe we should try their ways ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes Actually, there is a big thread about WRITING SPECS for that very reason, so some code can be made π ultima/#Tunes growls If we wanted some code, I'd assume we'd work on x86 boot code first. UniOS has one member who writes BIOS's for AMI for a living, he has already expressed interest in it, but I have not asked yet. Beholder: Hmm, thats not something to brag about <_QZ> ya ami bios sucks it's god damn too early for code! bineng:Uh, hell no ul: :) AMI is not that bad IMO if we are coding we should start with Flux, I heard it's very good π ultima/#Tunes wonders if anyone here besides me and _QZ has ever written a line of code MRBIOS is great, but costs much too much help OpenBIOS! _QZ: Everyone always spends so much damn time on papers be strategic, wait for your time Tril: Dont even go there Flux is crap first off its just basically freebsd with all the usability cut out and its 'non-free' π Fare/#Tunes would like to use TUNES metaprogramming to help generate OpenBIOS v2 :) bin: I agree. Code can be done once we have all agreed on our specs, and how to implement them. you dont wanna know how hard it was to find acopy they have restricted all users rights Beholder: Ok, so you go do specs for the next 10 years by then, UltOS will own the universe is that true? Flux is non-free? The new version? Tril: New version is commercial Tril: If its even out or is it different from OSKit? Tril: Thats why its non free OSKit is out a few years ago they released FLUX <_QZ> ultima: they released it a week or two ago and then they decided to sell it and they told everyone who was registered not to distribute it or anything they made with it Flux is the project within which the OSkit is developed ultima: UltOS?? their excuse was that they were going to commercialize it Fare: Flux is/was the name of oskit it was 'flux oskit' Ult: Do you know anyone with a copy? The design of the final OS (OS for everyone) cannot be hurried. and they were making something called 'fluke' a kernel with it <_QZ> ultima: how much progress have u made on ultos Beholder: Sort of...I used to have a copy, i nuked it _QZ: Not much, havent been workin on it _QZ: It basically bootstraps and clears the screen =P <_QZ> hahaha ah Does anybody know of any project that is similar to Tunes or UniOS? they decided to make it open source i knew that would happen <_QZ> binEng: brix they had GPL code in the source phear and their new license is GPL other than brix? Ok, I guess you could use flux That's what BRiX did on my computer but when I used it, it was crap anyway What's the current status of brix anyway? Tril: Bootstrapped and cleared the screen? The OSKit -- the Flux Operating System Toolkit. Cute <_QZ> Tril: yer box is broke 07:00pm yup then it froze up. I see "os" in french means bone; it also figuratively means "problem". <_QZ> Tril: just cuz yer floppy drive is crap dont slam brix _QZ: how about if I swap floppy drives and try a different one, I have 3 <_QZ> good idea then will you fix it if it fails on all of them? <_QZ> swap machines too :) I'll try it on some other machines.. <_QZ> i have a dozen machines that it runs fine on here <_QZ> nothing is wrong with brix _QZ: Define 'runs fine' _QZ Send me a disk image i'll try it out <_QZ> Tril: send him that image, i dont have any OK holdon... <_QZ> oh i think i found a floppy with it ωνω Tryl [dem@ppp13.whatcom.pacificrim.net] has joined #tunes ωνω Fare is now known as Fary damnit send me brix [cdcc] 1 file offered- /ctcp Tryl cdcc send #x for pack #x [cdcc] dcc block size: 2048, slots open:  5/ 5, dcc queue: 10/10 % #1 ( 13.50kb: 0 gets) BRiX boot image dd if=brix.img of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=27 QZX let me tell you BRiX well.....hehe <_QZ> qzx? Found: hd0 is it supposed to be something er, _QZ hehehe <_QZ> Tril: see it worked on his box hcf do you know what im doing? <_QZ> Tril: so shutup :) ultima, beholder: I have written a program that applies the crack for War2 <_QZ> ultima: ya it found and formated hd0 ultima: i didnt know _QZ: Ah I see _QZ: Formatted Tril: War2? <_QZ> hcf: ? 07:10pm hey, sweety is back! _QZ: ultima was typing to the wrong window, i pasted for him http://www.blizzard.com/war2x/ <_QZ> ah da oh, no, it isn't :( Fary: oh, well Tril: Ok, Warcraft 2 :) You write cracks? Thats semilegal too :) _QZ: Cute. My mouse wont work anymore <_QZ> ultima: i think that version has the 'jmp short $' in it so u probably didnt see anything after hd0 right? _QZ: right semilegal=the company doesn't want you to do it, but there's no law to stop you <_QZ> i will have an image out soon that doesnt have the jmp hmm, let's see... I guess using Linux is semilegal, since MS doesn't want me to do it.. good btw, what free Linux-based multiplayer game can I install to demonstrate my home LAN, when it's install? [will include a LinuxPPC PBG3] Fary: Quake2? Can its sources be compiled on a G3? <_QZ> fare: doom I thought Q2 didn't publish sources (yet) Who said anything about sources? QZ: are doom wads somehow free? <_QZ> fare: no shareware wad is no cost Tril: are there PPC binaries for Q2, at least? <_QZ> fare: but u can get the source <_QZ> the doom source is freely available from id Also, I never had luck with doom on linux yet -- always *something* that went wrong. <_QZ> u can downlaod the shareware wad for free Fare: You have a Mac? <_QZ> sit has 9 levels <_QZ> Beholder: pwoerbook Do you have a definite address to get a reliable doom source+wad that will compile on glibc2, (possibly with GGI) ? Linux doom is notorious for the sound not working properly, also crashes alot <_QZ> Beholder: that must be a problem with yer box <_QZ> Beholder: runs fine over here Be: my mom has to work with a Mac for her occasional works in mac vietnamese software There is a project to unify all the various free DOOM modifiation trees, I dont know where it is I can tell you from experience: MockAss is even worse than Win* ! google probably knows nackl back even _QZ: Tunes sucks <_QZ> ultima: eh? Fare: Brix sux <_QZ> hah u guys have no competition thats the problem both your oses suck ult: so what? u guys need to compete to make da best OS <_QZ> we r ultima: Wanna know what? UniOS doesn't suck ;) sure Bin: Yeah it does but my OS is BOSS! :) You haven't even seen UniOS binEng: Exactly so??? <_QZ> ultima: alonzotg sucks 07:20pm bin: I haven't seen UniOS yet :) Let him think it sucks. I know what it will be. ωνω ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: i think we should wordkick on 'sucks' ωνω ultima has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: ChanServ topic abuse sucks Beholder: But such a statement irritates me. He has no clue about what he is speaking about. be a man, change the topic yourself, tril bineng: Heh, I was joking =) ωνω Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: Ultima sucks bineng: Sorry if it upset you =) ωνω mode/#TUNES [+t] by Tril ωνω mode/#TUNES [-t] by ChanServ ωνω ultima has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: Oh, getting personal now? Well then, Tril sucks 1 hehehe ωνω ultima has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: Tunes -- http://www2.tunes.org is www.tunes.org working again? bin: That's alright, everyone is entitled to an opinion. We are here to make a better OS, not to compete :) ωνω SignOff Tryl: #TUNES (Tryl has no reason) oh well <_QZ> YES we are here to compete With Micro$loth <_QZ> competition drives innvovation (unless M$ is involved) <_QZ> we must compete amonst ourselves so that one of us will make an OS that will put M$ out of business <_QZ> s/amonst/amongst/ Amen brother _QZ ωνω MadMax70 [fedro70@a-bg5-16.tin.it] has joined #TUNES you mean "coopete". [Oh, no! another buzzword!] ωνω Fary is now known as Fare heh Fare: haven't heard that one before Fare are you suggesting that your a Fairie? You know, Gay? coopetition is the next buzzword Fairie? Gay? <_QZ> haha hehehe Until we cooperate, we compete. <_QZ> gay/fag/homo/etc Fare: fairie and gay are slang for homosexual I guess I know what Gay may mean, but Fairies I only associate to elves and magic Fare heheheok fare: Its rude american slang =) Fare: I agree :) Fare: now you know the derogatory sense of fairy yeah Ult: Most american slang is rude :) anything nice has a derogatory meaning Gay means happy, so of course it means homosexual Fairies were joyful magical beings, so of course they have a nasty sense *shrug* thats just american culture take anything good and turn it into shit America sux <_QZ> hahah, and M$ is at the top of that Alonzo: Not as bad as france <_QZ> ya the french dont bathe Yep... "True north strong and free " :) Canada is nice. <_QZ> er they dont use deodorant yes, I heard they were having economic troubles over there, I heard about some labor strikes over there... ew, canada <_QZ> the US is gonna nuke canada :) QZ: I do not think so... all you're nukes are here... :) Er <_QZ> Beholder: remote detonation no 07:30pm US doesnt have to nuke canada π Fare/#Tunes wonders where QZ and ultima get all those silly rumors all we gotta do is stop sending hay and all their horsies will die and then what will they do? charge us with muskets and sabres? <_QZ> ahhaha I've yet to see a musketeer that can take a m1 tank <_QZ> canada has like 700 mobile units _QZ: Thats a lot of horses <_QZ> US has like what 100 million _QZ: Well canada is just an eskimo reservation <_QZ> hehe we are just watching over it till we grow too much and have to take it over i mean do you seriously think an annex would be hard? the canadians dont even have a government to speak ov of <_QZ> haha <_QZ> america is the brains of the planet Oh well... UN say's were #1.... :) and the US is... what was it again... umm... #14... aww shucks... nice place to visit, but even France is better place to live! :) hahahaha _QZ of course it is <_QZ> we got everything Fare: is it you that manages the Tunes glossary? now I understand why the planet is so stupid, then! ωνω SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) Beholder: Actually, thats because we owe UN a few million and they wouldnt dare piss us off so they just give us low rating <_QZ> Beholder: who is the #1 supernation? binEng: I'm the author of 99% of it, but I don't realy manage it :( US is a nicer place to live than anywhere else without a doub Canada is too damn utopian Fare, so why does? <_QZ> Beholder: its not who has the nicer place to live, its who has the biggest guns :) QZ: Microsoft! _QZ yeah everyone here is *safe* if say germany wanted to invade canada they could if the us wasnt here <_QZ> exactly US citizens are safe Ult: If the US wasn't here? Where the hell would it go? Canadian citizens arent we are also extremely free okay, ultima. ultima: US doesn't have external threats... they come from within the country We may be oppressed by the incredible number of laws but we are safe Beholder: Thats the problem <_QZ> if the US gets nuked we will take canada, by force and have a new home to live in abi: what are we? we are here to compete or extremely free we have so many laws we are losing our freedom ultima: free to cast hell over other countries for the defence of your egotistic interests? because people dont know what freedom is where is Tunes? Fare: If thats our desire, sure but I hope it never happens Mad: should be www.tunes.org Canada is so nice because it *doesnt* have a government to speak of yes, I Know you pay your taxes and thats it ult: What do you concider a government? <_QZ> Beholder: big guns Beholder: A central ruling body with power over the people MadMax70: oh, you mean the finished system? no Tril uult: it does happen, everyday! Tunes is in your head Fare: Unfortunately the US cast hell over Iraq, by letting Saddam Fare: But the french tried to do it to us Yep, we did it to Iraq MadMax70: Don't understand the question cus they threatened all of the middle east <_QZ> Fare: his real name is joe something they cast hell over Vietnam, by helping the communists against the french, then forcing the South VN to lose war. MadMax70: tunes is an international project Fare uh we didnt force anything Tril: I speak english very bad .. we didnt help the communists either MadMax70: What language do you speak? sure, you forced south VN to not attack north VN, which means a "purely defensive" (i.e. lost in advance) war Tril: I intend .. conversation on Tunes Tril: I'm italian hell it was you guys who shelled haiphong you also deeply disorganized the south vn country; youguys started the damn war! MadMax70: do you know French? and we supported you no Tril 07:40pm we gave you 20 million in military aid and spent all the war money sending stupid ineffective GIs instead of real soldiers and we paid for most of your damn war π Beholder/#tunes takes a peacekeeper stance.... Nuf of the war talk... sorry I brought up Canada :) you paid the commies until the french left the country gave weapons to them hell no MadMax70: english is fine :) what are you looking for? sure you did! we paid you trying to 'defend' vietnam from commies u just got your butts kicked cus frenchies cant fight <_QZ> ok we have bleed this to death, new subject hell and after you guys surrendered, we took up the effort directly you first paid commies against japs and against french; then french against commies; then south against commies. Ult: Were you there? There is nothing to discuss but the present. i guarantee US companies support iraq. but at the same time, you made everything so that VN would lose war hell no Tril: this seem a channel on politic .. but Tunes? we didnt do anything like that we didnt mess with VN ask any vietnamese which soldiers were harder to fight: US or French. geez vietnam got declared independant and you guys were greedy you wanted your land back ωνω _QZ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: Tunes -- http://www2.tunes.org, not History 101 MadMax70: Now I understand your question. You want to know why we aren't talking about TUNES! I don't know the answer. But trust me, all these people are interested in TUNES. Go ahead and ask a TUNES question, and they will answer ult: it got declared independant, a democracy, and a happy country. then the VM formed <_QZ> ultima: drop it <_QZ> Fare: drop it Fare :no ult: the commies wanted the land, but not "back". They FOUGHT to declare themselves independant from FRANCE and you guys wouldnt let em and when japan tried to help them get free from your rule ultima: no they didn't, and didn't need you shelled em π Tril/#TUNES speaks on behalf of Vietnamese citiczens, US and France suck they got independance from a treaty without a fight oh come on, you guys were pissed, you lost a lot of commerce when you lost nam but then the commies decided that they wanted a fight, so as to have some legitimity To all: I'm interest in Tunes .. but my english is very poor .. I intend only read your discussion on Tunes (this statement have a sens? :) sorry we only supported you to get rid of the commies Mad: ok, set the topic ωνω mode/#TUNES [+v _QZ] by Tril MadMax: heh π Beholder/#tunes speaks on behalf of Tunes and UniOS... this is not a political channel, plz Fare and Ultima DCC Chat this stuff ωνω mode/#TUNES [+v MadMax70] by Tril ultima: you "helped" in the worst way possible ok ωνω mode/#TUNES [+m] by Tril ωνω mode/#TUNES [-m] by ChanServ HAHAH <_QZ> i seond that <_QZ> second <_QZ> damn chanserv <_QZ> fare, ultima: DROP IT, NOW!!!!! Gotta go now Beholder: when will you return? ωνω mode/#TUNES [+v Beholder] by Tril >>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 915248815 848856 from #TUNES >>> _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] requested PING 915248900 541058 from #tunes Tril: I'll be back in about an hour or so.... I have to go socialize with family ... <_QZ> Beholder: im sorry :) ping replay: yes .. I'm here :) MadMax70: Yes, it makes sense. We'll talk about TUNES soon QZ: S'ok they want me to play pool :) <_QZ> Beholder: im sorry QZ: no I'm good at pool :) but this is not the topic in this channel either :) later <_QZ> heh 07:50pm did you know we still had a dcc open? :) <_QZ> not i I have dcc to bineng and alonzotg, we are conspiring <_QZ> did u know i put up the internal specs of brix on my server? are they hidden? <_QZ> no <_QZ> u just dont know what directory :) Hmm, I call that hidden. <_QZ> as soon as i finish converting them all to html then i will link em <_QZ> and move em to www <_QZ> oh wait <_QZ> that might be a bad idea <_QZ> one of u could make a clone of brix with em yes, but why would we? you already are doing that, we're too lazy Tril: why wasnt the main tunes mailing list named, tunes-l? QZ: the BRiX site hasn't been updated in a long time... QZ: do you make any progress? hcf: what's wrong with tunes@? ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250054.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hi tcn welcome to OS-IDEAS , binEng :) no one has posted to it, yet.. wow.. busy tonight.. hello everyone Tril: tunes@ is more like a regular email addr Tril: ic... no much point in that, then... Tril: traditionally, mlists use '-l' hoy tcn howdy hcf: well, I thought it was appropriate, since it is the main thing we use our domain for. Personally, I hate -l and -list.. nobody has mentioned it until you just did tril: tunes@tunes.org is great w/ '-l' u know mail sent to it is going to a list binEng: I hope it will be used, but I haven't had time to advertise it or post on it. It would be for OS ideas other than UniOS and TUNES. oh well, I should be going. I'll look at it, bineng binEng: there are some people on it, but they don't seem to be very talkative :( Maybe there's more to OS's than tunes cya... later 08:00pm ωνω SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) tcn, what will you look at tril: OS-IDEAS.. is there *anything* there yet? If not I'll put something there It should help me keep an open mind :) Tril: i take it chance of '-l' mlists, rite? s/it/it no/ heh anyone have Windows NT4? I had it at my old job ultima: in my trashcan It sucks It looks like win95, and it's almost as unstable yes .. is unstable, is true tcn: yeah, try to wake up the members. Un-tunes-related stuff: anything special purpose or not as ambitious heheheheeh tril: It's just os-ideas@tunes.org? from comp.lang.forth: [...] The Unabomber disrupted dozens of lives; he got life without parole. The Oklahoma City bomber disrupted hundreds of lives; he got the death penalty. The Redmond bomber has disrupted millions of lives, albeit not to the same extent; he became the richest man in the world. Go figure. And what about the persistent rumors that Microsoft uses Forth for internal development... hcf: If others want it, I don't mind, but you are the first to mention it. ask around. -Howard Shapiro (hms@shapirolab.com) tcn: http://www2.tunes.org/list/os-ideas/info.html MadMax: He'll be out in 10 tops <_QZ> in america the penalty is less if hte crime is greater TheBar huh =) _QZ: True Kill a kid, you get death penaly blow up a buttload of kids, life in jail tril: Not found :( QZ: in most country. <_QZ> i still think my rights system should be used tcn: Try http://bespin.ml.org/os-list.html this URL is ok 08:10pm Pinochet was a petty dictactor. He only killed thousands of people, and agreed to let democracy come back in peace -- so he is prosecuted <_QZ> whatever u do is done back to u the same wy <_QZ> way Castro killed tens of thousands, and brought ruin to his country; he won't leave without a fight -- so he is universally acclaimed. yes, there are still no posts. maybe we should advertise os-* on alt.os.development? <_QZ> u rape a women, and u get raped by some big fat ugly guy bah US is wimmps haha <_QZ> u shoot sum1 in the head, u get shot in the head Tril: perhaps, comp.os.misc and/or comp.os.research _QZ: I rather like that policy _QZ: that's America The Chinese commies killed hundreds of millions, and despise human life, not to talk about human rights -- they are universally feared and admired. anyone want to write an announcement? Tril sure here goes We nuked Japan, but it's not OK for anyone else to even think about it.. <_QZ> i will Tril: alt.os.development isnt carried by that many news svrs HI THIS IS UILTIMA FROM THE TUNES OS PROJECT WE ARE ELITE SO WORK WITH US AND PHEAR heh <_QZ> ANNOUNCEMENT: yes its true, alongTG *IS* a homosexual <_QZ> s/alongTG/alonzoTG/ ult: if you killed a few millions of people, you'd be more respected when you say that _QZ: his 1st was his father Fare: Heh, sad but true <_QZ> hcf: HAHAH _QZ why is that funny? <_QZ> Tril: inside joke <_QZ> u had to be there my news server has it. But I only saw one post in months <_QZ> Tril: he told us that his father raped him or he raped his father or soemthing Tril: use deja, there is traffic _QZ: Oh, I thought u meant what hcf said in the channel <_QZ> Tril: that is what i meant ωνω lar1 [Larman@1Cust90.tnt31.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes OK now I see I missed something hcf said. this channel is too active. Hi hola, lar1 wow so man people here amazing <_QZ> it is amzing I am in awe... <_QZ> all these lifeless nerds are all here on new years day u should be! Now I need mailbox archives of UniOS _QZ: I know! Its weird! Hehehehe eim gonna be elite with Windows NT <_QZ> nt blows _QZ: I know _QZ: but it also means an a <_QZ> i can crash nt faster than i can crash dos _QZ: Heheheh Hehe <_QZ> sad but true _QZ: Can Linux run NT binaries and make emtoo? Not very well =) We're all here cause it's -30 outside tcn that too.. <_QZ> its nice and warm here ultima: if nt runs in bochs :) Tril: hehe Tril: Bochs is sloooooooooow its like on my pentium slower than a 386 ult: so is NT hcf, tril: The new glossary CGI stuff will be ready tomorrow.. then what? ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: tunes unios brix osdev Fare: Exactly 08:20pm <_QZ> osdev? speaking of nt, what is the URL for that Free NT Clone project? Fare: A slow os under a slow emulator wont even come CLOSE to usable <_QZ> osdev is dead tcn: will it? _QZ: osdev is a generic word _QZ: not the old list ωνω ultima has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: UltOS TUNES UniOS BRiX OS Development ultima: better <_QZ> what list? ult: how do "NT" and "usable" come in a same sentence? Fare: when there is an 'un' before the usable, quite easily Hey, who else does CGI programming here? Fare? abi, scan for nt abi scan for winnt <_QZ> i have done cgi I've never used NT, am I missing anything? I do CGI lar1 no Ok, good i only have to use NT because i dont have a windows test platform for my comp class <_QZ> lar1: have u been to hell? lar1 not unless you like pain I was always under the impression that NT was better then 95. <_QZ> not Tril: should i remove abi's 'pattern too short' thing? That's what MS marketing would lead you to believe. I used to believe it <_QZ> 95 is better than both nt and 98 My dad told me he had to get win98 instead of win95 because it would make it easier to switch over to NT.. hahahhahahahaa hcf: Nah, just add more facts :) tcn: offer your dad a brain upgrade for his birthday... He'll probably end up using Linux on all his office computers by the time Microsoft is pushing NT for everyone.. I wonder if AutoCAD runs under Linux yet. LINUX is very cool, but it can screw with your head after awhile... <_QZ> uhh I figure Tunes or something won't be a major player for another 10 years <_QZ> maye if u are brain dead tcn: who cares about proprietary software, anyway? Engineers.. They make so much money, it's a drop in the bucket! It's just, Windows is unreliable <_QZ> and M$ proved that too <_QZ> bought hotmail, converted from freebsd to nt, crashed, converted back to freebsd What is the difference between freeBSD and LINUX? <_QZ> it takes 40 nt servers at M$, to compete with the one freebsd server at cdrom.com _QZ hehe <_QZ> ultima: its true Yeah, NT sucks. 08:30pm My college (which has a shitty IS department) switched from DEC's and SUN's to NT servers.. ((lambda (x) `(,(reverse x) ',x)) '(`(,(reverse x) ',x) (x) lambda)) <_QZ> cdrom.com uses a dual ppro200 to do the same doanload bandwidth that M$ does with 40 nt servers that u know are running dual p2's hmm im bored i just shaved my ankle hehehehe The main server is always running at 99% capacity with zombie processes.. <_QZ> ultima: u feeling the fairy in u coming out? <_QZ> :) _QZ: No, the boredom in me coming out <_QZ> ultima: no i think thats the fairy lar1: freeBSD has different policy on allowing contributions. same with netbsd, openbsd.. each has different coordination structure. (I could be wrong) <_QZ> no matter how bored i was i would NEVER shave my legs Fare: wtf? _QZ: Shrug, everyone has to explore his other side at some time or another _QZ: Ankle, not leg tcn: a quine palindrome <_QZ> ankle, leg whats th freakin diff uh, a couple feet =) ankle == 1 sq inch of hair =) <_QZ> men dont shave that low bahaahahahaha Tril: ah <_QZ> tcn: what main server? it has been said that main server is always running at 99% capacity with zombie processes.. lar1: what's your name/email address? <_QZ> tcn: what main server? main server is always running at 99% capacity with zombie processes.. Tril: Why do you ask? <_QZ> tcn: what main server? main server is probably always running at 99% capacity with zombie processes.. QZ: zeus.sunybroome.edu ... assuming they even registered it. I think they forget to register the whole damn domain. <_QZ> im gonna nuke abi's lame ass abi: dumbass abi: phear abi: dumb fuck = abi tcn: not '=', 'is' abi: dumb bitch is abi lar1: well, mainly because I read the logs a while back and wanted to answer a question u had. And we wondered if you had posted to the list <_QZ> abi is a dumbfuck <_QZ> who is abi rumour has it i am the little girl borg with a big brain abi: forget dumb bitch hcf: I forgot dumb bitch Tril: Ah, Name : Jon E-mail: lar1@bigfoot.com <_QZ> abi: abi you suck <_QZ> abi: abi is gay ...but abi is the little girl borg with a big brain... You gotta fix abi so it only speaks when spoken to.. <_QZ> hcf: ya fix abi you asked who made BeBoxes: Be did, but they stopped (didn't make money) Ahhhh so they decided to concentrate on software Does anyone actually use Beos? <_QZ> i have beos How is it? <_QZ> its nice BeOS is useless <_QZ> has no good apps <_QZ> but its nice not nice enough , apparently , if yer making brix What's nice about it? <_QZ> hell no <_QZ> its not that nice BeOS would be cool for games or something <_QZ> but it kicks serious ass over windows <_QZ> and is up there with linux _QZ: Heh i wouldnt go that far the HW support sucks Is it easier to use & configure than Linux? and it has no use to speak of shy of games <_QZ> it has the unix thing down but sucks cuz its single user π ultima/#Tunes could see BeOS with a bootable CD with games.. <_QZ> tcn: tons easier ultima: what is the midnless tasks you need done for review? <_QZ> its easier to configure than windows Easier to config then windows?? Tril: I need people to go over the languages page and find dead links and take the text and put itinto plaintext files tcn, weren't you doing that sort of thing for the glossary? ultima: We should write more details about good languages and put them in a prominent place 08:40pm <_QZ> ultima: beos has good hw support if u run the best BeOS would seriously rock if they went open source Tril probably think of how quickly features would get added. tril: I'm writing a few perl scripts to manage it. One entry per file, with a script to make a master file (text & html), also search & update scripts. Where can I find the list of PCMCIA SCSI cards LINUX supports? in the config, isn't it? lar1: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/doc/HARDWARE or something like that Thanks tcn: its metalab now, no longer sunsite π Fare/#Tunes doesn't think anything C++ rocks Beos.. why does anyone bother trying to make proprietary OS's anymore? How do they expect to make any money? the old address still works. It better work for at least 2 years, from all the books and CDs with links to it OS's are something we take for granted now. tcn: because they're run by an arrogant Frenchman. Tril: thats what errata is for tril: Sounds like Tunes ;) of course π Fare/#Tunes whistles innocently ok new subject? 08:50pm anyone reads french? Oh yeah, Be really was started by an arrogant Frenchman I found the 2 UniOS list subscribers not listed on the UniOS members page me and smkl :) "building a personal computer using new assumptions".. uh, wasn't the Bebox just another PowerPC? bye bye ωνω MadMax70 [fedro70@a-bg5-16.tin.it] has left #tunes [] Anyone know what Bebox's sold for? not really, it was a new design board, using powerPC chips Where can I download LINUX? How big is it? that would be a troll in any channel on this network :) lar1: which distribution? lar1: difficult question to answer RedHat? lar1: do you want just a one kernel binary, or a full distribution with lots of tools? RedHat is 2 CDs tomsrbrt is one floppy Hmmm Debian 2.1 looks pretty good Umm I have Linux 1.something... but I want to run 2.0 the RedHat binaries take only one CD lar1: how fast is your connection? Do you have ISDN, DSL, or a cable modem? 56k ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has left #tunes [] well, I guess it doesnt matter, if you have time But I have access to T1 if I can get it through http ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has left #tunes [] You can prolly http it from metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions lar1: the best way to get Linux is lsl.com, buy a cd and get it shipped for less than $5 cheap*bytes is cheap, too Cool... Now am I better off geting 2.0 on CD or screwing with all of the patches? lar1: if you are new to linux just download 2.0.36 sources and compile (learning how to compile the kernel is the first thing to do in linux) after installing, i guess. Hey, the Bebox was supposed to be cheap.. anyone know how much it cost? I read the HOWTO... but it didn't work... I can rarely get LINUX to work for me. π Fare/#Tunes hesitates between either a PC or a NetWinder... Ahh, if you try to install 2.0.36 on an old 1.0.something, there will be all sorts of libraries and utilities that need updating. Just start fresh.. but NetWinders are too expensive... Ok tcn: I dunno, but I can find out (I know 2 people who have them) 09:00pm Fare: VA Research? tril: I'd be interested to know.. if they were too cheap to make money off of, or too expensive to compete with other computers.. I'm sure either way, they didn't sell enough of them Be is a stupid name.. their web page looks like a joke :) Tril: Alphas are another category of price the reason they didnt compete wasn't price, it was well, how tiny their market is Tril: but I4d sure rather get one than a PII the size of the market has a *strong* implication on price: mass production, amortizement of development, et The 68060 looks nice.. unfortunately Motorola's discontinuing that line. π Fare/#Tunes likes the ARM chips a lot ARM and MIPS chips can be had pretty cheap, because they're used so widely in embedded stuff.. ex: nintendo 64, $120 ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[escher.sdi.agate.net]) >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250054.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 915253425 from #tunes ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes tcn: what did you think of my suggestion to split the list? tril: If this activity keeps up, do it. I think a -announce is good should -announce dupplicate /index.html news exactly? a -links is good, too, though maybe that wouldn't be tunes-specific, so maybe os-links ? Maybe one for announcements, one for theory, one for practice, one for non-technical design issues (like user interfacing).. or just links@ tcn: please don't do too early splits hcf: right well, not 09:10pm there are too many mailing-lists on bespin; an os- or tunes- prefix helps get things sorted out hcf suggested -l and -list postfix Tril: not -list I don't like it, but if anyone else does.. I don't What list? It's redundant. When I found out about that address, I knew it was a mailing list. tcn: ur smarter than the average bear I don't like postfixes yup he knows where to get the pick-uh-nick baskets they only clobber the screen and mind haha I want the tunes mailing-list not the tunes-mailing-list mailing-list! hmm, I thought -list was annoying, but not mind-clobbering Holy crap.. I searched for 1 word, and altavista found ONE web page! to annoy is to clobber (a small part of) the mind tcn: and that word was? fare: Visiocad.. a CAD program I wanted to look into as an Autocad replacement "URLs of relevant papers and sites", why shouldnt they just be posted to the relevant list(s)? hcf: so people can filter messages more easily? hcf: so you can safely forward external e-mails? hcf: they should be on a web page, with a "submit a new link" button at the bottom Fare: ppl w/ wimpy mail readers how abovut: review-links (new submissions to check out), review-lang (discuss opinions of languages), review-os (discuss features of OSes) ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes Sir? tril: That's too many review@tunes.org: link submissions, discussion of lang and os features could become flame war. (is that good?) isn't it redundant with os-ideas? I was thinking we should split it into theoretical/mathematical stuff (like BRice's stuff) and more concrete stuff, like actually writing Tunes prototypes.. Tril: perhaps, add "review subproject" somewhere in the desc ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has left #tunes [] ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb33l.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes well, yeah 09:20pm tcn: Right now, the most concrete we get is tunes-specs. After the specs, then some code. tril: Ok, sounds good ultima? shall we create a list for review@tunes.org? <_QZ> in smp does only one cpu handle irq's? tril yes QZ: under linux, any processor may handle interrupts π hcf/#tunes suggested review@tunes.org a while ago <_QZ> or do all cpus get interrupted and the kernel picks one to handle it the IO-APIC chooses one CPU and interrupts it <_QZ> how does it choose you program it _QZ, read the kernel yourself! haha Where can I find a _GOOD_ tutorial on RAW PMODE? look at the linux kernel sources <_QZ> ok so only one cpu gets interrupted then it acquires a lock lar1: http://www.erols.com/johnfine then it processes the interrupt Thanks tcn lar1: Hey, we should collaborate on this. It's a real pain in the ass. abi, raw pmode is http://www.erols.com/johnfine Could someone takeover the "links" part of the Assembly-HOWTO ? tcn: collabroate on what? <_QZ> i dont care how linux does it, i just wanted to know if all cpus got interrupted or just one Fare: can IO-APIC be programmed to interrupt ALL the cpus at the same time? lar1: Writing the protected-mode code for Tunes (or whatever os) <_QZ> raw pmode tcn: Well, I was going to write the Pmode code for my OS... but I'd be happy to collaborate! <_QZ> Where can I find a _GOOD_ tutorial on RAW PMODE? <_QZ> is abi suppose to say something? just one; there would be no use in having *all* the CPUs interrupted (plus synchronization would suck, and simultaneous memory access to same code would suck) _QZ: she's ignoring u abi: what is raw pmode raw pmode is at http://www.erols.com/johnfine RAW PMODE is NO GOOD, hence no good tutorial! <_QZ> ignoring me??? WHY fare: right on What is abi suppossed to do? _QZ: u called her names abi is a retarded, but funny, bot <_QZ> lar1: whatever u want her to do hehe abi: be abi look at me, i'm cute! abi: hi salut, lar1 You see abi doing some funny shit when you read the IRC logs <_QZ> abi: be bad does abi search the logs? abi: be alonzotg om haha abi: go postal *ARG* I've had it Up To HERE! WITH YOU FOLKS!!!!!! it's been an hour..where's beholder <_QZ> hcf: who's code u using? lar1: abi doesnt touch the logs abi: oznoid? somebody said oznoid was at mailto:lenzo@cs.cmu.edu or at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~lenzo gotta go -- happy new year! _QZ: him hcf: So how did abi repeat where that Pmode site was? π Fare/#Tunes is away (hope I'll be more productive after those family feasts) lar1: tril taught it to her 09:30pm hcf: ohhhh You have to start the line with "abi:" or "/msg abi" usually.. tcn: no, she learns from general channel chatter <_QZ> where is brix? brix is a preemptive multithreading multiuser protected memory space high speed persistent object oriented document centric graphical operating system hcf: Not very well What kind of bot is she? <_QZ> haha tcn: its oznoid's nlp, blame him lar1: infobot You better straighten her out, QZ Do /msg abi help _QZ: she learned that the other night, when u said it <_QZ> hcf: yes i see that who is alonzotg? abi: who is tcn wish i knew, tcn <_QZ> brix is at http://www.qzx.com/brix <_QZ> where is brix? brix is a preemptive multithreading multiuser protected memory space high speed persistent object oriented document centric graphical operating system Alonzo is one of the UniOS members <_QZ> AlonzoTG is a fag abi: who is AlonzoTG? AlonzoTG is a fag heh QZ: Why do you say that? hehe abi: who is lar1 you are in awe... I wonder what she says about you.. <_QZ> Beholder: he said he was <_QZ> who is _QZ abi: who is _QZ tcn: i haven't a clue <_QZ> _QZ is GOD <_QZ> so abi only goes off of keywords and not the type of question? <_QZ> like waht and where? abi: who is abi i am the little girl borg with a big brain Gotta go, sorry I couldn't stay long ωνω Beholder [beholder@ppp-048.m2-1.sub.ican.net] has left #tunes [] <_QZ> 'what is brix' should give a different answer than 'where is brix?" abi: whil yuh suhk muh cohk _QZ: u saying u wanna recode the nlp? abi: what is linux? linux is very cool, but it can screw with my head after awhile... <_QZ> hcf: no im saying u should :) abi: who wrote you? bugger all, i dunno, tcn abi: what is UniOS? UniOS is, like, at http://members.xoom.com/unios/ who's _qz? _qz is a fag <_QZ> how do u change defs in abo <_QZ> abi _QZ? abi wrote you is I dunno, who wrote you? tril: no idea Tril: its not <_QZ> abi _QZ? _QZ: watch: abi: foo is bar what is hcf? abi: _QZ is a fag i already had it that way, ultima. abi: foo? foo is bar abi: what is QZ? ultima: i haven't a clue abi: no, foo is baz okay, hcf. abi: what is _QZ? well, _QZ is a fag abi: foo? foo is baz HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ok how do you elete things delete things forget _qz tcn: I forgot _qz abi, who is ultima? tril: no idea who's _qz? <_QZ> abi: forget brix _QZ: I forgot brix abi: what is raven wish i knew, lar1 abi, what is openprojects? tril: no idea <_QZ> brix is at http://www.qzx.com/brix abi: Sex is not the answer. Sex is the question. 'Yes' is the answer. <_QZ> brix? brix is at http://www.qzx.com/brix abi: what is sex? sex is, like, not the answer. Sex is the question. 'Yes' is the answer <_QZ> hahah abi: where is lar1 you are, like, in awe <_QZ> abi: forget _QZ _QZ, I didn't have anything matching _qz <_QZ> abi: forget _qz _QZ, I didn't have anything matching _qz <_QZ> abi: forget qz _QZ, I didn't have anything matching qz abi: _QZ is Brand is the guy who made BRiX, a totally useless OS wish i knew, ultima figures _QZ: dont fret case abi: what is tunes tunes is in my head abi is cool! sounds better than TUNEs is a useful but not (or whatever) expedient system.. 09:40pm <_QZ> hcf: u need to use ff's, he had multiple phrases per word Tunes is a useful nevertheless expedient system _QZ: giv an example abi: foo? hmmm... foo is baz abi: foo is also bar okay, hcf. abi: foo? foo is baz or bar <_QZ> ff's bot had multiple phrases associated to each word hcf: does abi remember who taught each fact? haha Tril: no <_QZ> and ff's knew who said it abi: who told you alonzotg is a fag? bugger all, i dunno, tcn haha abi: what is baz lar1: i don't know abi: what's foo? somebody said foo was baz or bar abi: screw you abi: baz is also foo <_QZ> abi: die abi: what is baz? baz is foo <_QZ> abi: 5*5 25 <_QZ> abi: 5/0 abi, die! rumour has it die is AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE z(n)=z(n-1)^2+C abi: what is z? lar1: no idea <_QZ> abi: 0934815734858432056784356847365/1439859028346578234657243 <_QZ> why does abi not answer me <_QZ> abi _QZ? abi: Z(n) is Z(n-1)^2+C abi: 0934815734858432056784356847365/1439859028346578234657243-1? bugger all, i dunno, hcf <_QZ> abi: 87346435*4875674356 425872773217520832 abi: what is Z(n)? Z(n) is Z(n-1)^2+C abi: abi:2^256 abi: 2^256 258 abi: what is Z? bugger all, i dunno, lar1 abi: 2**256 a number with quite a few digits... thers a limit to the size of a number that she'l deal w/ abi: 2**25 33554432 abi: 2**100 abi: Z is also Z(n) a number with quite a few digits... but abi: 2**80 1208925819614629174706176 abi: 1/0 abi: what is Z? rumour has it Z is Z(n) if cfg so, she can use `bc` abi: z(255) abi: what is z i heard z was Z(n) s/cfg/cfg'd/ abi: what is z(255) ultima: i haven't a clue abi: Z(2255) abi: lookup www.l0pht.com abi: what is C lar1: bugger all, i dunno abi: how smart are you? i am the little girl borg with a big brain <_QZ> abi: lookup www.kjlafdghkjlfg.com abi: 11-1+2-1 11 abi: 0/-1 i didn't have anything matching , Tril _QZ: try 'abi: nslookup www.poop.org' abi: sqrt(-1) abi: nslookup bespin.ml.org bespin.ml.org is 206.63.100.13 Well, I got to go... later all abi, what is bespin.ml.org abi: bye! tril: wish i knew ωνω SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) nice only A records, right? abi: solve 2343 = 7c^2 abi, what is the meaning of life? i don't know, tcn <_QZ> abi: nslookup www.sdjkfsdhfkjdsfh.com I can't find that machine name <_QZ> damn abi is fast <_QZ> wish netscape was that fast abi, the meaning of life is 42! You should know that! <_QZ> what is hte meaning of life? abi, what is damn abi i guess damn i am fast abi, what is abi it has been said that i am the little girl borg with a big brain _QZ: she's doesnt do spelling mistakes like urs ;) s/do/handle/ abi: "the meaning of life" is 42, dammit! what's the meaning of life? the meaning of life is probably 42! <_QZ> what is the meaning of life? i guess the meaning of life is 42! abi, what is it? tril: wish i knew abi, what is Be well, Be is a stupid name.. their web page looks like a joke :) haha abi, what is BeOS? it has been said that BeOS is useless <_QZ> what is brix hmmm... brix is at http://www.qzx.com/brix abi, what is bill tril: bugger all, i dunno abi, what is MS tril: wish i knew <_QZ> what is windows? abi, what is Microsoft wish i knew, tril abi, bill is an evil bastard! abi, what's bill? bill is an evil bastard! <_QZ> bill gates is a bad bad man 09:50pm who's bill gates again? ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: botplay abi, where is the linux programmer's bounce point? tril: bugger all, i dunno abi, who's bill gates? bill gates is a bad bad man abi, fetch! abi, what is NT i haven't a clue, tril <_QZ> windows is a 32bit patch for a 16bit shell on an 8bit OS originally made for 4bit machines by a 2bit comapny that can't stand 1bit of competition π tcn/#tunes throws a bone <_QZ> windows? windows is a 32bit patch for a 16bit shell on an 8bit OS originally made for 4bit machines by a 2bit comapny that can't stand 1bit of competition abi, go fetch! yo 4bit machines :) <_QZ> forget windows _QZ: I forgot windows <_QZ> windows is a 32bit patch for a 16bit shell on an 8bit OS originally made for 4bit machines by a 2bit company that can't stand 1bit of competition <_QZ> maybe it was extension and not patch ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: botplay 101 <_QZ> oh well <_QZ> im going to bed ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) abi, what am i bugger all, i dunno, tril abi, what are you? i am the little girl borg with a big brain abi, what is he wish i knew, tril abi, where are you? it has been said that i am the little girl borg with a big brain aargh Remember ELIZA? abi, synflood nef@bespin.ml.org abi: ELIZA is my dad abi, who's eliza? eliza is my dad tcn: ELIZA is a chatbot, not an infobot abi, what is tcn: eliza i haven't a clue, tril thus dont expect ELIZA-like behavior from abi I haven't seen that since we had Apple II's abi, what is going on? tril: i don't know hcf add a eliza to it ultima: perhaps, at some point Today's AI may not be useful but we sure do enjoy screwing around with it.. ultima: im still debugging the current code hcf: What's abi written in? abi: source dump tcn: perl abi: infobot? i think infobot is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot src is available ther abi, what is src src is probably available ther watch yer spelling :) forget src tcn: I forgot src ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: botplay 102 abi, what should I do? tril: wish i knew Tril: write more specs abi, help me write these perl scripts abi, where is wget? tril: i don't know abi, finish writing these perl scripts for me π hcf/#tunes reminds everyone, if u want to see a real infobot in action, watch purl in efnet/#perl 10:00pm ok really? i think really is no, not really! :-P What's the efnet server? forget really Tril: I forgot really abi: efnet server list? efnet server list is probably @ http://www.efnet.net/serverlist.html or also outdated abi: ultima is god tcn: pick one ultima? well, ultima is god abi: efnet? tcn: i haven't a clue ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers) π ultima/#tunes hugs abi π ultima/#tunes likes that bot =) ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES abi: purl? purl is efnet/#perl's infobot w/ 62209 factoids or a 5'8" sexy blonde w/ 40DD breasts and no plastic surgery. _qz? _qz is a fag forget _qz ultima: I forgot _qz qz? i guess qz is the two least used letters of the alphabet _qz? e? ultima: too bad forgeting _qz wasnt that easy ;) abi: efnet server list is also irc.efnet.net okay, Tril. _qz? abi: What is _qz? ultima: i haven't a clue abi: e is Enlightenment Window Manager @ http://www.rasterman.com tril: Is e any good? e sux i haven't tried it. I heard it uses lots of memory/slow to be honest, raster cannot code I've got Windowmaker running now, which I heard was based on e. But it's fast.. abi: what's e? e is Enlightenment Window Manager @ http://www.rasterman.com tcn: WHAT?? WindowMaker was not based on E windowmaker supposedly is a fresh codebase abi, what is windowmaker i haven't a clue, tril abi, what is windowmaker supposedly rumour has it windowmaker supposedly is a fresh codebase abi, what's wmaker tcn: i don't know abi what's wm tcn: bugger all, i dunno anyway im out of here going to bed later ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Leaving) forgot what time zone I was in There's nobody on efnet#perl Oh yeah, only 10:00 there tcn: thats /really/ rare And Fare, he stays up till 6 in the morning? I was in EST for the last week. I got used to looking at bespin's time and adding 3 hours to find out what time it was yes, he does hcf: purl isn't even there tcn: the box purl's on has had problems of late maybe I was wrong about irc.efnet.net... No, irc.efnet.. wait, net? I got on irc.efnet.org 10:10pm hcf: why do you only leave abi on here when you are around? Tril: iv been testing her Tril: taking her on efnet w/ me oh yeah, Tril, we're gonna give abi access to the new Glossary efnet being where assistance is (#infobot & #perl) aren't glossary entries sort of long? Abi will only show the summary. abi, what is efnet being where assistance somebody said efnet being where assistance was (#infobot & #perl) maybe that's a little too many words prefixing the "is"? Tril: u think so? yeah, she shouldn't remember shit like that, which nobody will ask for (except hcf) abi, what is maybe that's a little too many words prefixing the tcn: i haven't a clue whew who goes through and delets those useless factoids? Tril: me of course abi, when abi, abi, abi hmmm... i am the little girl borg with a big brain Tril How big is abi's db now? abi, stats? Since Fri Jan 1 18:27:51 1999, there have been 233 modifications and 143 questions. I have been awake for 3 hours, 46 minutes, 42 seconds this session, and currently reference 126 factoids. the max lengths can be limited current cfg: lhs=30 rhs=200 Tril: would u like this changed? oh, no it's ok, if u clean up the db I wonder if 30 is enough for the glossary tcn: plz check It looks good on the submit form.. 30 for the title, 200 for the summary, and a big text window for the details tcn: ~/abi/db* total 68616bytes, this is both 'is' & 'are' hcf: not too much, I guess abi: unix? tril: bugger all, i dunno abi: database? wish i knew, tcn ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: botplay 103 next we hav karma abi++ abi++ abi: karma for abi? abi has karma of 3 abi-- bad bot abi: karma for abi? abi has karma of 3 oops unix is like C, designed to be pleasant, unconstraining, and flexible. foo-- abi: karma for foo? foo has karma of -1 10:20pm abi: karma for tcn? tcn has neutral karma for some reason, negative karma'ing 'abi' doesnt work abi: karma for _QZ? _qz has neutral karma _qz-- abi: karma for _QZ? _qz has karma of -1 abi: what's _qz's karma? tcn: i haven't a clue retard abi: karma? tril: i haven't a clue abi: karma for alonzotg? alonzotg has neutral karma the syntax \is (karma|score) [for] $thing Will she bitch at _QZ if his karma gets really low? tcn: no tcn: but bad things will likely happen to him ;) haha what's _qz? abi: _qz? tcn: no idea abi, tell tril qz perl++ for its superiority perl? karma for c++? c++ has neutral karma c++-- karma for c++? c++ has neutral karma abi, karma for c? c has karma of 1 abi: c++-- karma for c++? c++ has neutral karma c-- hmm ++-- = noop? abi: c++++ Tril: i dont know, probly the parsing isnt proper abi: karma for c++? c++ has karma of 1 wierd abi: karma for c? c has neutral karma abi, ? i don't know, tril abi: c++---- abi, ? is . abi, karma for c++? c++ has karma of 1 abi's code is far from perfect abi: c++-- karma for c++? c++ has karma of 1 be thankful the regular factoid stuff works yup, abi is pretty screwy uhh, what's abi? i guess i am the little girl borg with a big brain oh yeah, sane factoids. The Glossary should be sane. Hey, should we let people modify/rewrite glossary entries via CGI, or just append them? Tril? btw, hcf, 30 chars is fine.. the longest entry now is "constructors and destructors" are you trying to make a computing dictgfionary exactly like foldoc or something, just free? dont you already contribute to foldoc? foldoc? !NickServ:*! netgod used GETPASS on kimmy abi: foldoc? tcn: i haven't a clue Tril: if (foldoc) why a glossary? Must be another tcn The tunes glossary is just for tunes.. it has "internal" terminology. tcn: people should be able to modify/rewrite all tunes tree via CGI, then. Look at Wiki Ok, then keep the glossary fixed, I guess. 10:30pm I dont know, I probably havent read the enitre glossary i have no opinion on what it should become it's not one of the most important parts of tunes, i know that The important thing is to make the glossary more understandable, and also to break it up into smaller pieces (but still have a large HTML file available) thers terms that r becoming non-glossary pages rite? i think the important part are the main features , which should be main sections of the web page glossary and review need to be more integrated. links to lang/os from glossary entries for features, and links to glossary entries from review entries but that can be done after tunes is finished, that's what it's good for, after all append is ok if members can use CVS on the old entries is anyone using tunes wiki? no dufrp was..check RecentChanges last change Nov 18 So the answer is basically, no. Why bother, when yo have CVS? nov 18 \is recent compared to most (os, etc) projects π hcf/#tunes will now start to use iz instead of \is to prevent all the useless things he types from going in abi's brain s/in/into/ yeah, you gotta clean up the db.. hehe Wiki USED cvs, that's why I originally set cvs up π hcf/#tunes is away 02/01/99 1:42:22 EDT : brb Was CVS easy to set up? 10:40pm no it may be, in newer versions. i'm still running an old one guess I've got my work cut out for me.. I've got a job doing that next week. Unless, of course, I find something better. π hcf/#tunes is back you're doing CVS for work? My dad needs an update system for his business.. CVS is the best I've seen so far. It runs on DOS, Linux, etc, and it only transfers what's changed.. holy shit, 531 hrefs in the review/lang page this mite take a wee bit longer than i thot To do what? check for deadlinks etc moved sites ... I've looked at lots of that stuff, but I didn't have time to make note of all the dead links 10:50pm Ahh, we've got our work cut out for us hcf: great, you're doing that for ultima? cool Or we could just say "to hell with these crappy old languages"... Tril: yep Tril: see what i meant about scut work? how about "put the text in plaintext files"? yeah, well this is the firsst time he asked for any help. i'm glad he did. hopefully, beholder will make help requests get asked quicker With the scripts I'm working on, the glossary entries are in plaintext. The scripts HTMLize them automatically. tcn: also auto build all-in-one text & html rite? yeah, it already does that much. tcn: whats left to do? script-wise hehe wow, mainly just the CGI interface. Other than that, it's just a matter of deciding how we want it to look. if the files get auto built, whats the cgi face for? yeah, just use text editors and CVS also CGI.. for searching and adding. Not really necessary. for the entry per file, we need a toc index thing tcn: hmm toc is easy. i know I'll add it right now :) well, tonight I want to avoid CGI as much as possible. It's wasteful.. tcn: did u hav something in mind for the search ability? thers htgrep @ http://iamwww.unibe.ch/~scg/Src/Doc/htgrep.html but, we only need to search the text files right. There should be plenty of fuzzy-searches available in perl. searching should be implemented for the entire TUNES web page. I considered Glimpse. 11:00pm for now, something simple would do, plus it'd be less resource intensive hopefully hcf: The glossary will generate html.. htgrep would be ok. Tril: the www tree tgzs dont get auto built do they? yes they do The search could get too complicated if it has to search more than 1 format they are built from CVS every night the same time as the web pages are updated are there tgz? i thought they were tb2 I dont even know, fare put them somewhere i know less than u ok, just look in /pub/tunes/snapshot..that's a daily tarball. Do we really need a search engine? sure, the page is enormous. it's not necessary but it's a nice touch iz ther a way to effienctly search a tarball? being able to grab the urls out too search one time, or build an index? Might be easier to just search the Tunes tree itself.. index search, yeah.. that would be easy to set up, wilma already uses it for the mailing list archives. Well, the perl script that generates html output from glimpse mighjt need to be modified (wilma_glimpse) to work for non-wilma web pages although might also want to use a newer ver. of glimpse. i had to use 3.0 (very old, 1995) because that's what wilma used Tril: the snapshot tarball includes the mlist archives rite? 11:10pm Well, it should just be the html docs. but I'll check no, it doesn't do files/ (pub/tunes) or list/ (files/list/) good it does exactly what is in CVS π Tril/#TUNES goes on a mailing list creating spree Tril: bespin doesnt hav `vrfy`? haha hcf: did you say HELO hostname first? eland has `/usr/bin/vrfy` [nef@eland ~/c/1]$ vrfy dem@tunes.org Tril The only vrfy I know is "telnet mail.domain.com 25" "HELO mysystem.org" "VRFY " to find out if a mail address exists on that domain yo have to use nslookup to find the MX record for the domain, to know what the mail serfver is type "file `which vrfy`" (back quotes) which: no vrfy in (/usr/local/qt/bin:/usr/local/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/andr ew/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/games:.:/users/nef/bin:.) shell alias? no, you said /usr/bin/vrfy, can you type 'file /usr/bin/vrfy'? eland: vrfy: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 386, version 1, stripped try to find what package it is in. redhat: rpm -qip /usr/bin/vrfy err, I mean -qfp eland is deb oh 11:20pm bespin has no rpm just forget it heh I have redhat 5.1 I will try on my home machine soon. if it's good i'll put redhat on bespin. I'll try debian when 2.1 comes out. or we can use rpm in slackware, rpm doesn't depend on a distribution heh, [nef@eland ~/c/1]$ vrfy kaehler2@webpage.com send some mail, i'll try my best im just vrfy'ing the mailto links on the review/lang page or trying to that one means the mail server won't tell you. some disable vrfy to make it harder for spammers to clean out bad addresses from their harvest lists Hey, let's write an antispam worm tcn: lets concentrate on tunes agreed :) Allright, glossary generates an index & individual html's 11:30pm π hcf/#tunes tosses tcn a humansnack ;) ok, I just created review,tunes-announce,and tunes-specs@tunes.org yum tcn++ abi: karma for tcn? tcn has karma of 1 abi: cool :) I'm going to subscribe everybody to them and then announce that they should be used and people can unsubscribe from each sounds good. How's your spec, Tril? Did that Antonov thing help? oh, also unios@tunes.org was created, but only unios members were added to it initially. I'm kinda waiting to get the archives of unios to put with it Tril: subscribe nef@bespin to all lists plz I should change my list-control to a list of chcekboxes instead of a select field. i will sometime or not :) What's a good program to sort my mail into folders for each list.. procmail? not nef@tunes? tcn: yep.. want my procmailrc? Tril: does it matter? tril: Sure, thanks a lot hcf: not really.. i'm not sure if the "do not read" one works I'm going to add one to also put any subject that ends in multiple exclamation points to spam hahah I've been lucky enough to avoid spam since I switched providers My old one (spectra.net) got me tons of spam.. I almost think they sold users' email addresses, since they were doing other "internet marketing" bullshit. I've taken to appreciating spam, it lets me improve my procmailrc. Then I can share it with others, and reduce their spam, too. haha sue ! What's the pacificrim one for? They spam you? 11:40pm pacificrim is my isp, if there is From: <@mail.pacificrim.net> that means the idiot spammer didn't include a From: field so the mail server added one anyone who doesnt have a from field in a message is a spammer yup that one only probably works on my isp..but who knows. We had a spamfest at school this fall. Some teacher mailed everyone about "Rainbow Flag", some guy wrote "hey! quit sending this faggot shit!" or something, and you know the rest Dumb fucks kept hitting "REply to All" for their flames.. π hcf/#tunes *yawns* Wha are the new lists, again? 11:50pm tunes-announce, tunes-specs, review, and unios [nef@eland ~/c/1]$ dpkg -S vrfy netstd: /usr/bin/vrfy netstd: /usr/man/man1/vrfy.1.gz in case u care netstd? tril, do you use .forward to run procmail? no, I have procmail as my local delivery agent. All mail is sent through procmail. (on bespin, there is a global /etc/procmailrc that does mailbomb protection, too) netstd iz servers and clients for ftp, telnet, nfs, tftp, finger, etc etc ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250054.clarityconnect.net]) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0102 IRC log ended Sat Jan 2 00:00:02 1999