שםש Tril [dem@ppp95.whatcom.pacificrim.net] has joined #tunes נ Tril/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 30 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] נ Tril/#tunes is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 2 min 43 secs שםש smkl [sami@ppp27.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes velkommennn hmm,am I close? no how do you say welcome in Finnish? tervetuloa שםש Nater1464 [nate@ppp083.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes ahh much closer to the Russian, sdrazvuitye שםש Nater1464 has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: intel blows hi tril hello whats new? שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250126.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes yup, intel definately blows that's hardly any closer abi: what is functional programming? well, Nater, I'm reading this document that Oleg posted to the TUNES list, about Yadim Antonov's "Grail" OS design. It's very good .. I'm reading that too.. 08:30am smkl: No its very similar, t/d, r, v, t in order, and same no. of syllables! in linguistic evolutoin, vowels tend to change faster than consonants. it sounds completely different. there is nothing similar in them tervetuloa has same etymology as welcome or vהlkommen gonna go later all ok, I'll ask my linguistics professor what the ancestry oF Finnish and Russian are. I think Finnish comes from Turkish i don't know about trastui tcn: nope later nater Weren't there some people who migrated from Turkey to Scandinavia? they don't have ancestry. finnish has only etymological relationship with indoeuropean languages tcn: uhh. when? Hundreds of years ago שםש SignOff Nater1464: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Nater1464[ppp083.wi.centuryinter.net]) I wonder where I heard that, anyway... turkish and finnish might have common ancestor, but it would have been like several thousands of years ago 08:40am Ahh, about as close as English and Sanskrit :) yeah Yoke (english) and Yoga (sanskrit) come from the same root ;) i wonder who invented all these lame internet country codes CX Christmas Island hahaha that's not even bad: AQ Antarctica Why couldn't they use more than 2 letters? Because the US is 2? Gotta go.. I shall return ping smkl Someone offered to buy me a CX domain I don't think I want it, what if he goes away or stops paying? oops TP East Timor -- hopefully this is worst of them You have good internet connects over there in Finland i don't have too good. cheap though 08:50am ick: SJ Svalbard & Jan Mayen Is Later.. שםש SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) נ smkl/#tunes wonders why there's not Moon and Mars country code נ Tril/#TUNES wonders why smkl wonders that because there is country code for Antarctica 09:00am mathematical function is a mapping containing exactly one association from every element in the domain to one element in the codomain. The set of codomain elements possible output of the function is called the range why not multiple possible returns? 09:20am because it doesn't matter, if you want compound values returend you can create a compound codomain. and treat "a tuple of 2 values" as the "one" return value. that's multiple returns, if you meant possible returns, as in maybe f(1) = 2 and maybe f(1) = 3 some other times , that's not a function, just an association. The reason why must be that the kind of associations named functions have many useful properties and people frequently study them so they gave them a name 'function'. 09:30am ok so basically it's just terminology Attribute-based addressing is a scheme in which objects are located not by their unique names but selected using specified conditions. The attribute-based addressing is rarely used in oper- ating systems (may be undeservedly) due to the complex- ity of its implementation. Sounds good to me...we'll use that :) (from the Grail paper) 09:40am שםש SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250058.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes I'm back 11:00am wake up! שםש SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) 11:10am שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250054.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes Tril: Local addressing sounds good Everything is relative Hmm.. this Grail paper answered some of my toughest questions.. And I haven't even begun to understand half of it... 11:20am שםש Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES Relative addressing is what is used by the Exokernel, and other systems that pass access "priviledges" on between objects I think any type of addressing fits in as a type of attribute addressing, because the "relative" or "hierarchical" address of something can count as an attribute of it. hmm 11:30am I thought about this a few months ago, as an addressing method for free-form radio networks like the l0pht's Guerrilla.net project It doesn't matter what you call it.. it has promise [side note: Is there a concise summary of Lambda calculus online? or should I write one?] which, relative or attribute Relative aka Local There are some lambda links in my bookmarks, http://www2.tunes.org/~dem/bookmarks.html Fare likes the one at Rice (Matthias') i have a very nice doc about lambdacalculus I have a better explanation in a book I found a summary in The Emperor's New Mind http://www.diku.dk/users/rambo/curry-howard.ps I'll be back in less than a few hours שםש SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) 11:40am שםש SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) שםש hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes שםש SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) שםש _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hello _QZ <_QZ> hello 02:10pm how is BRiX going? <_QZ> uhh <_QZ> i havent worked on it in over a week <_QZ> maybe tonight נ Fare/#Tunes is back wb Fare hey! I put 10BT cables around half of the apartment, and it works right the first time. I'll do the other half next year... נ Fare/#Tunes is considering getting either a netwinder or an old PC as a server. <_QZ> i have a p90 w/ 32meg as my server <_QZ> seems to handle the ip forwarding pretty well :) I might put my 6x86-150+ as a server; but then I'd have no computer of mine <_QZ> ack <_QZ> mine use to be a p150+ <_QZ> the chip was too hot and the fs kept becoming corrupt actually, it's a P200+ @150MHz <_QZ> mine was at 120 overclocking it however slightly would make it too hot; but it ran well at official 150MHz <_QZ> i even had the program to set that bit so it would idle down <_QZ> it was still hot enuf that it would crash once a week <_QZ> and screw over the fs I admit I never tried to run it more than a few days at once: the power surge was much too noisy, and not good to sleep next to (the CPU cooler was noisy, too -- I believe the whole computer was underpowered, which caused fans to not run at optimal speed, or such) <_QZ> haha <_QZ> my stupid cpu fan was 3 times louder than any pentium fan <_QZ> and it would rev up when the cpu was in use 02:20pm <_QZ> do u know beholder's email address? rev up? QZ: must be available from the unios site click on the link at www2.tunes.org/ <_QZ> when the cpu was in use the power consumtion goes WAY up and causes te power supply to increase the system voltage so the cpu could get its power <_QZ> the increased voltage made the cpu fan and case fans spin faster hence more noisy? <_QZ> yes what does "when the cpu was in use" mean? isn't it "always"? <_QZ> no it idles down <_QZ> the 6x86 wasnt compatible with most of the boards at the time <_QZ> so they didnt idle the cpu down and that is why alot of them burned up שםש hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes <_QZ> but there was a program u could run to set the bit to make them idle down <_QZ> and linux uses hlt to idle down the cpu when not needed 02:30pm I think my ASUS board is fully compatible, but then I don't really know <_QZ> the modem/network/keyboard/mouse etc would wake up the cpu when needed <_QZ> which asus? did I tell you I have a keyboard that roasted 2 or three mobos? T2P4 <_QZ> what chipset is that? (one T55P2 fried) QZ: 440FX, I believe (perhaps HX?) <_QZ> my uncle touched his keyboard once and a static shock went into the computer and fried his ps/2 <_QZ> mobo <_QZ> 440fx is a ppro/p2 board <_QZ> 430fx doesnt support the 6x86 period <_QZ> 430hx was needed to run them well, was 430?x <_QZ> and the hx didnt idle them down must have been hx, then anyway, either I put this computer as server, and get a new PC (got a "spare" SB16PnP and a "spare" Xpert@Work), or I keep it, and get a netwinder or an even older second-hand PC as a server. 02:40pm שםש SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) <_QZ> well u dont need a petnium class machine <_QZ> unless u plan on doing some real server stuff on it <_QZ> if u want to put a large drive in it and mount that drive from another machine then get a pentium-class machine <_QZ> 486's cant xfer 1meg/sec to network cards that well I plan to do: 1) routing 2) disk server 3) printer server (on a 10BT network) <_QZ> u might want a petnium then so indeed, a fast 486 may do (but they cost as much as a pentium, on the second-hand market) <_QZ> 486 cant acheive the full bandwidth of the 10baseT <_QZ> atleast the dozen 486's i have seen couldnt can't it? too bad. Maybe I'll recycle my P200+, then. Too bad it's so noisy... is there a way to keep it quieter? <_QZ> set that idle bit <_QZ> see if that helps QZ: you mean linux won't do it automatically? <_QZ> no 02:50pm QZ: I have a rc.cyrix with the following; will that do? echo -n "Cyrix 6x86: Suspend-on-Halt, " $SET6x86 -p 0xC2 -s 0x08 <_QZ> thats it well, it's still very noisy <_QZ> hmm actually, it already was noisy before I upgraded my P90 @ 120MHz to the cyrix (well, IBM, actually) <_QZ> but a new (pentium not cyrix) cpu fan and get another case fan to blow over the cpu fan <_QZ> ahh <_QZ> u have an ibm I'm not sure what you mean about another case fan: <_QZ> ibm doesnt sell the same 6x86's as cyrix doesn't it??? <_QZ> ibm's run cooler I thought it did. a 6x86L-P200+ do you mean an additional one, or one to replace? <_QZ> cyrix pushes their chips harder and would buying a larger power supply (like 300W instead of 250W) help? well, this chip can't be pushed harder <_QZ> cyrix p200+ would be the same chip as ibm's p166+ <_QZ> they kinda overclock them for u maybe that's why. <_QZ> and the p166+ and p200+ are low power whereas the p133+ and p150+ arent I kinda remember an ibm signature on the chip, but it was sold to me as a cyrix new year just happened in france. <_QZ> cyrix is a struggling company and needs to make a buck at any cost Happy new year! <_QZ> ibm is more concerned about quality <_QZ> heh 03:00pm שםש Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES Tril: I'm one year later than you are Tril: now, here is being in advance over you! <_QZ> haha Tril: would it be possible to setup the bespin DNS to have www.tunes.org fallback to bespin when sweety is down for more than two hours? No. It's either 1 IP or a round robin (random) <_QZ> yes it would 03:10pm <_QZ> if bespin is primary ns for tunes.org Unless you want a dynamic record, which causes LOTS of traffic and load for DNS servers all over (not to mention I don't know how to do it) And, BTW, bespin is not primary NS because Core hasn't changed it yet. <_QZ> bespin could ping www.tunes.org every hour, and if it doesnt reply on two consecutive pings then change the ip in the ns <_QZ> tell core do get off his ass <_QZ> s/do/to/ _QZ do you realize what kind of TTL would be required for that? ONE HOUR. That means caching of TUNES.ORG would be completely impossible. Fare: Why is sweety down? smkl said it was down a lot. A better solution would be to get a different server. <_QZ> move everything to bespin and drop sweety bespin is down every couple weeks for about 5 mins. Maybe more often. Due to the provider of bespin's provider (who knows why). Maybe they run NT. try to ping bespn for a long time, sometimes 10-15% packet loss <_QZ> cant u setup a random dns thingy <_QZ> so it load balances www and www2 _QZ: How to tell core? He gets so much e-mail. And he lives in France. Load balancing? We don't have load. Do you mean chooses the closer one? <_QZ> fare takes a shotgun over to visit core <_QZ> no i mean it randomly picks www or www2 when someone accesses www i didn't say it's down a lot <_QZ> 2 machines on a single name that could be done, but why? Tril: if I knew why it were down, it wouldn't be :) 03:20pm I was rather thinking of record updates in cases sweety is down ask core how that would be done like, a daemon polls sweety every so often; when it detects a failure, it retries a few times every 15 minutes; after some downtime it updates records so that bespin is www; when sweety is back, new update to normal and while you're at it, have him set bespin as primar DNS didn't he do it already? no how long is sweety down for? DNS propagation takes a LONG time. my, I can't ask core. I never meet him, he doesn't answer phone, he's never on irc at the same time as I, and he doesn't answer e-mail :( :( :( but you live closer to him yeah, only 1Mm away 3e-3 light-second away one million meters? yes, M = mega <_QZ> 620 miles? <_QZ> is france that big? 621.3711922 miles? <_QZ> 621.371192237 to be more precise :) <_QZ> but i dont think fare was being precise with 1Mm he probably meant >10km <_QZ> ya I meant 1Mm שםש hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes actually, that's road-distance; airplane would be only 600km or so how long is France then between 2 and 3 milliseconds of light he's as far from me as can be, within mainland France. maybe if you write him a postcard. he may pay more attention to his snail mail than his electronic communication forms. 03:30pm where he lives? and you? (actually, there are farther places: isolated regions are more difficult to leave/reach than big towns like those we live in) I live in Paris, he's in Montpellier <_QZ> http://www.core.netnation.org/ <-- is that his page? one of his, at least If only irc.ggi-project.org was receiving connections, he might be on there more often. too many tunes email late no #ggi on efnet, undernet, slashnet, or dalnte I finished the last french version of my article (apart from missing bib ref to AOP) he's often on #linux on undernet Fare: there will be even more soon, because UniOS people write more email every day <_QZ> Fare: i found soemthing for u anti OO faq? well, he often used to be smkl: sure! OO sucks i suggest splitting the mailing list heeeeeelp! <_QZ> http://babelfish.altavista.com/cgi-bin/translate Tril: if you have a good criterion, please do use it! <_QZ> see if that will translate yer thing from french to english QZ: for 64KB worth of text at once? QZ: if you can use it, please do! <_QZ> Fare: it converts web pages <_QZ> any web page u give it <_QZ> or u can dump test into it <_QZ> s/test/text/ it converts only start of a webpage? Fare: what is his irc nick? 03:40pm core err beginning <_QZ> smkl: it converted all the pages i used it on <_QZ> smkl: full page QZ: if you can do anything out of it, I've put my current half-translation and the original french at fare@bespin:ll99* a perl-script to publish pages, invoke babelfish, and get the result, iteratively, would be great! on a big page i tried it, it only translated like 10 screens or so <_QZ> smkl: hmm smkl: which is why a script is needed to automate that I has something like a 8k limit plus, it doesn't grok complicated markups that well get domains in .cx, quick! no, don't Why? they promise to charge money for them in the future. perhaps Fare a an owner in that company? oh, then don't. i want "f.aq" <_QZ> .to domains are better ip addresses are better I have 127.0.0.1! and I'll keep it! hum, gotta have supper with family... bye! נ Fare/#Tunes is away (new year supper) <_QZ> at 1am <_QZ> u r eating at 1am???? french eat unhealthly <_QZ> hehe <_QZ> ya and they have dead cricket spitting contests 03:50pm <_QZ> uhm, tunes has 100 members? actually, 90 emails on the list <_QZ> just cuz some1 is on the list doesnt mean they are a member well, that's what he meant <_QZ> i would guess maybe 5-10 members <_QZ> and 80 watchers <_QZ> im pretyy sure jecel is on the tunes list but he is not a member ya who cares? they are potential members usually people hang on the list for a few years, then announce they want to join <_QZ> if u had alot of code, maybe 04:00pm bespin is giving me console message: Invalid fragment list: Fragment over size. <_QZ> haha <_QZ> what kernel Linux bespin.ml.org 2.1.127 #5 Tue Nov 17 13:17:26 PST 1998 i586 unknown <_QZ> hmm also, I see : release_dev: driver.termios[3] not termios for (03:03) Warning: dev (03:03) tty->count(3) != #fd's(2) in release_dev perhaps you are nuked? <_QZ> smkl: his kernel shouldnt be affected by fragment nukes bespin used to get denial of service a lot, but not for a long time I think it was on 1.2.13 the fragment thing is a filesystem corruption notice, I think 04:20pm שםש binEng [bineng@dialup95-1-38.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes Hi guys, and... Happy New Year! hny binEng! hi :) Tril, your not online on ICQ? I signed on for a few secs a minute ago I don't like ICQ, it's owned by AOL owned by AOL, but not influenced by that. yet. so what do you think of the tunes thng? should I add all unios list subscribers to the tunes list? 04:40pm yes, please do that it works as a usual mialing list, I presume? It doesn't require a password, like the OneList. Also I didn't set Reply-To like UniOS has (it's a dangerous practice) I'm using majordomo.. I call majordomo a "usual" mailing list.. well, I guess majordomo *is* the usual way read all about it on our web page /collaboration.html#Mail where did you get the server anyway? ICQ: If I'm on, I'm usually on this channel. Use that instead of ICQ :) sure Where did I get it? I approached an ISP and asked if I could volunteer for them in return for free colocation for my hobbyist server. So I write perl secripts and stuff cool נ _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( Auto-Away after 30 mins ) there are friendly small ISPs . the owner here happens to be a *bsd person, so he gets along with me (a linux person) I hate perl :) שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: perl rules :P 04:50pm שםש binEng has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: perl rules - oh really? :P cool I'll add everyone after I go through all my UniOS mail, and try to figure out how to transfer the threads over. will you repost all UniOS postings to the Tunes list? heh, no. I'd like to put the archives of UniOS list on my server, so they wlil be with the same interface as the tunes list k peolpe who want to read all of it will use the web or download the mailbox files. Just imagine getting 100+ messages in one day? I meant if you would repost all *new* UniOS mails which ones are new? 05:00pm you mean tunnel the list? all posts to unios get sent to tunse? umm yeah I don't know all of the terminology... i just made up that term tunnel , i think it fits bad buy :) but what you meant is any posts to UniOS would be sent to the tunes list. boy yes, sent to both I guess No, I don't think so.. שםש SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...) i would have to setup an onelist account for tunes, and somehow get everyone to unsubscribe from UniOS list. It's easier to just remove the list entirely and ask everyone to use the other list instead. does that make sense? i mean, is that ok sounds resonable what do you think of the possibility to completely merge our projects? well, I wouldn't be against it. But it depends on the UniOS members. If they want to. It doesn't depend on your members? 05:10pm I guess. tunes members are weird. they never say what they want perhaps they trust in the discissionso of their leaders but do you really have leaders? leaders :) no. there shouldn't be. everyone should have a say. I'm probably interpreting leaders wrong. leaders=ppl who do stuff aha, active members, you mean? ruffly active decission making members how do active members determine what to do you're asking me? your opinion נ hcf/#tunes is an active suggestion making member it's our crisis In my opinion, everyone just decides what to do based on what they like doing. I guess that might actually not work, becasue then some stuff doesn't get done. leaders for me are those with special responsibilities... like coordinator or web master BTW, who's doing the web stuff for Tunes? binEng: beholder will be And how many of your hundred members are actually active? Will he do all "web work"? binEng: probly not binEng: like the head of a group he'l be the head, him and the contributors will be group Tril: am i hitting or missing? probly not what? binEng: probly not doing all web work How many Tunes members are active, and how many have never said a word? 05:20pm Web stuff..anybody can contribute to the web page. Beholder and I will probably redesign the webpage ,but anyone else can help well, lots of people occasionally jump into a thread few are doing work for tunes. those are listed on the members page Tril: and coordination will work simularly to web stuff? I want to let beholder do whatever he wants, and he can ask me for input if he needs it שםש SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr]) שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250078.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes re tcn howdy I take it you're having trouble w/ abi again ;) Beholder and I have spoken a little about letting me take care of the web site... tcn: why's that? the topic - perl guess I was wrong. anyways......... Yeah, the web site needs work.. just don't use any pointless pictures right שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: www2.tunes.org what about it? oh, right, go there :) just a more default /topic 05:30pm שםש binEng has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: www2.tunes.org: soon subject to changes! We need a better FAQ.. something more to the point. and there you have some informatino as well would you recommend I read the last months' posts to Tunes' mailing list? or more? or less? to get an idea of what's going on Yeah, just don't fret over the "Arrow" stuff too much.. you'll see hwat I mean. No-one seems to understand it. :) tcn: except brice tcn: k hcf: I think he's onto something really deep.. hcf: It should actually be useful.. is it something you could explain quickly? what , Brian's arrows? No, I only understand the very surface of it tcn: please , help with the FAQ! ok. and the Glossary Tril: is ultima handling the glossary along w/ the review pages? is ultima a person? binEng: yes, he sometimes shows up here binEng: do /whois ultima_ ultima is not doing the glossary that I know of Does anyone have any suggestions on the glossary? fare's goal is to split it into individual files for each entry is the glossary really that huge text file? 05:40pm and there's a list at the bottom for entries that need to be added it is a large html file ya over 100k available all as text, html. and separate per term as html I had a look of its definition of reflection. Frankly quite useless. Yeah, I'm gonna fix that one something like the foldoc interface would be nice tcn: I wrote a good (good feedback) definition of reflection on the list, earlier this month or last month. I'll help u find it if u need tril: A short (one or two sentences) summary of Reflection would help people get the basic idea, if not the details.. Tril, I know why I never saw your postings... I looked at the top... wow, lots of activity on the list today how many mails today? 5 or so how many are there usually per day? Something nonmathematical from Brice.. cool I've been going through my back log!! I've got 30 UniOS mails to potentially reply to, too! gotta go now... later! נ Tril/#TUNES is away: (AFK.) [BX-MsgLog Off] I'm leaving too. Catch you later! later שםש SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) שםש SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) 05:50pm שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250078.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes I guess I'll hang out here for awhile 06:00pm tcn: so r u gonna be the "glossary person" or just contributing? I don't wanna manage the glossary, I just wanna explain some things in Plain English. I'm mostly into design & coding work. coding w/ what lang(s)? Any. Mostly assembly, Forth, and new experimental languages I write I know C pretty good too, but I don't like it now that I have Forth. the gloss could use a cgi Yeah. You know perl, right? yep, perl :) Great. You got the job! :) oops misread hehe i know some perl, probly be able to a simple cgi i thot u said u knew perl נ hcf/#tunes 's brain is cold, wont work rite Haven't used it in a long time. I could write a Forth CGI נ hcf/#tunes could write a TRAC CGI Actually.. Forth wouldn't be a bad idea.. It's pretty efficient, and www2.tunes.org is kinda slow. And Forth will almost definately be in Tunes. i wouldnt mind a forth cgi I downloaded an example of Forth CGI from forth.org I know Forth better than Perl. Perl is complicated. Forth is nice & simple. whats ur opinion of: glossary available all as text and html. and separate per term as html oops, add separate as text also Yeah, that would be great. 06:10pm now, which of those would get generated by cgi? individual html's rite, thats what i was thinking but what about individual texts? individual ASCII's could be used by abi and as a program on bespin the gloss entires as i recall tend to be a tad big for abi abi could use the 1st line or so i ges ahhhh That's where my Plain English stuff comes in :) abi's maxKeySize is 30 and maxDataSize is 200 these r settable, but anything bigger gets too annoying for irc Each entry can have, say, a 1 paragraph plain English summary, shown by abi, then everything else follows We could store the definitions 1 to a file, in plain text, with a blank line between paragraphs.. or something like that. do u know how the whatis db is made?