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I think I have introduced myself to smalltalk at one time...I know nothing about self (which I've been meaning to get around to) 12:06:28 sorry if I'm not much help 12:06:45 lisp for example has a static type system that slate doesn't have, for example 12:07:11 even the quoting mechanism in slate is open 12:07:53 hmm 12:08:21 and besides that, slate "emulates" oo through the use of particular meta-objects 12:09:08 the interchangability of meta-object architectures makes things a bit difficult to explain in a fixed way 12:09:23 because everyone hates a particular mop 12:10:12 extrasolar also doesn't understand meta-programming, although he tried to 12:10:31 what about lisp's macros? 12:12:26 okay, I don't think I mean grok...I meant "understands superficially" 12:12:42 so I don't know about lisp macros 12:12:48 oh 12:12:50 sorry 12:14:11 it just basically amounts to being able to manipulate syntax trees using programs at run-time or even compile-time 12:15:13 hm reminds me of another lisp thing that slate's trying to get rid of... special syntactic forms 12:15:36 at least for primitive syntax, not macro-defined 12:16:26 so it doesn't try to enforce programming style... 12:16:48 perhaps 12:17:30 the basic metaphor is graph-manipulation, which does seems like an enforcement of style at a certain level 12:17:48 (or s/graph/web/) 12:19:57 bbiaf (~15 minutes) 12:21:41 A lot what you are saying and, indeed, Slate...is a ways over my head. I understand functional programming via Haskell and Scheme, OOP via C++ (yes I've heard of C++'s crudeness for OOP), and some other bizarities like Forth...Ihaven't programmed in any of these languages really but I understand or used to understand how the lanugages work 12:22:21 the only language that I can say I actually grok is BASIC (which was a long time ago) 12:22:33 but Slate seems to be so different from all them 12:23:23 the whole namespace thing that you dig into that contains the value of the function escapes me 12:24:50 and I don't really think that OOP and Functional Programming mix well, because they completely different ideas about state and assignment 12:25:38 extrasolar digs into some more of the docs to fill some holes 12:26:28 functional seems to be more about flow and OOP seems to be more about structure 12:26:34 from what i understand 12:28:16 I agree on the functional front but not on the OO front 12:28:32 OOP seem to be more about state 12:28:59 how to cleanly access, construct, and destruct state/objects 12:29:26 How do you see structure? 12:30:38 Pure functional languages try to avoid state entirely 12:30:50 yeah 12:31:30 i view OOP as a sorta 'overlay' of functional programming i guess 12:31:57 from what i see of C++ anyhow 12:32:08 accessing OS functions seems to be done much more cleaner in OO, so you can do file.open("myfile.txt") 12:32:24 overlay? how? 12:32:56 well, breaking the flow of function 12:33:10 into small sub-sections.. or structures 12:34:14 you seem to be describing structured programming, via C or pascal 12:34:32 yeah probably 12:35:39 C++ is supposedly a multi-paradigm language...structured, OOP, generic, etc 12:36:08 but the OOP aspects are the class structure 12:36:22 thats probably why my understand of OOP is broken 12:36:43 i've only touched C++ a few times too 12:37:03 some people suggest that C++'s OOP is broken :) 12:37:19 yeah 12:39:00 just wish i could better understand tunes goals 12:39:19 extrasolar agrees entirely 12:39:41 seems all too incoherent to me 12:40:51 I can understand some of it. Like basing an OS on higher level programming seems like a very good idea. 12:40:58 yes 12:41:20 i'm starting to see what reflection can do.. i believe 12:41:39 but things like reflective and meta-programming, just seem like over-engineering to me (i don't really understand them, mind you) 12:41:58 yeah 12:42:10 thats what i was thinking.. but it has made some sense 12:42:31 i think meta-programming is a way to share semantics 12:43:00 between languages and interfaces 12:43:38 water is back. reading what he missed 12:43:45 td: then Tunes is to be based on many programming languages 12:43:46 [QUIT] downix quit: downix has no reason 12:43:47 and reflection is a way to modify or evolve the system 12:43:57 thats what i gather 12:44:48 td: I know that Lisp lets you modify lists, even lists that are to be executed...is that like reflection? 12:45:29 i assume its something like it 12:46:05 but you can't modify structures outside of lisp's realm can you? 12:46:11 hm 12:46:23 over-engineering?? 12:46:35 water: heh, I am pretty confused, aren't I :) 12:47:19 water: yes. that is a statement from someone who doesn't understand what he is talking about 12:47:41 look basically lisp's macros allow you to input a piece of code with special constructs, where the special constructs are the macros that output core lisp code 12:48:10 it allows you to factor out repeatedly-used code 12:48:32 but it's also the lisp programming language itself, so you can do it recursively 12:49:21 hmm 12:49:31 it's actually the opposite of over-engineering, since you're just taking old code and finding templates in it, and factoring out the templates 12:51:00 however, macros do have problems of their own 12:51:29 water: is that something like higher-order functions...where you can take out parts of functions, that produce functions, that can be used over and over again in other functions? 12:51:39 they're not bullet-proof, since they have to be defined in the same environment they're used in, and symbol clashes can cause strange bugs 12:51:57 yes, it's a higher-order function that relies on quoting 12:52:44 the quoting allows you to do more things by delaying or forcing evaluation (or even changing it entirely) 12:52:46 mark4 joined #tunes 12:53:21 I think I am on the virge of understanding 12:54:17 pick up a lisp book that covers macros, maybe 12:54:22 Tril joined #tunes 12:54:22 [MODE] ChanServ set mode: +o Tril 12:54:38 hopefully there's an online tutorial for lisp that covers macros 12:54:40 Tril left #tunes 12:54:43 yes, I should 12:54:48 i think abi has an entry for that 12:54:56 Tril joined #tunes 12:54:57 [MODE] ChanServ set mode: +o Tril 12:55:01 abi? 12:55:01 extrasolar? 12:55:06 abi: lisp primer 12:55:06 lisp primer is at http://logic.tamu.edu/~colin/lp/lp.html 12:55:09 oh! 12:55:31 heh :) thanks 12:55:33 yeah it covers macros a little 12:55:35 np 12:57:09 abi: successful lisp 12:57:09 successful lisp is at http://psg.com/~dlamkins/left/sl/sl.html 12:57:36 that covers quite a bit more (nearly all of CL) 12:58:03 i really missed having abi around 12:58:05 Tril left #tunes 13:05:49 oh! macros are like lazy evaluation? 13:05:58 they can be 13:38:02 smklsmkl joined #tunes 13:55:12 nate37 joined #tunes 13:55:56 [QUIT] smoke quit: Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn245.delft.casema.net] 14:12:38 smoke joined #tunes 14:15:55 [QUIT] I440r quit: Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: EOF from client 15:46:02 mAdKittie joined #tunes 16:00:53 I440r joined #tunes 16:03:55 [QUIT] smklsmkl quit: Ping timeout for smklsmkl[ppp48.dial-in.verkkotieto.fi] 16:37:09 [QUIT] extrasolar quit: xchat exiting.. 16:41:11 eihrul joined #tunes 17:15:07 [QUIT] mAdKittie quit: BitchX: the Cadillac of all clients 17:16:22 [QUIT] TeXorcist quit: Ping timeout for TeXorcist[nwhn-sh6-port189.snet.net] 18:39:29 Acous joined #tunes 18:41:48 [QUIT] Acous quit: Acous 19:00:52 [QUIT] downix quit: BitchX-1.0c16 -- just do it. 19:49:18 bonsoful joined #tunes 19:49:48 [QUIT] bonsoful quit: bonsoful 20:34:39 _Gadget_ joined #tunes 20:34:43 <_Gadget_> hey 20:39:03 [QUIT] _Gadget_ quit: The cheese stands alone. 22:37:03 water joined #tunes 22:37:58 idiots run academia 22:38:45 re all 22:39:41 billh joined #tunes 22:40:34 intelligenesis and principia cybernetica get an article in NewScientist :P 22:42:38 the article isn't online, though, amazingly 22:57:00 billh reads the linux-kernel low latency discussion. 23:05:11 hm i might just spend a bunch of time offline in linux using klyx to write papers 23:33:01 smoke joined #tunes 00:28:08 [TOPIC] water: TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/